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Joystick blues?

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 8:08 pm    Post subject: Joystick blues? Reply with quote

Reference0001
i personally don't use joysticks, but this might interest those of you who do

BTW, here's a more current recommendations thread


Last edited by MajorFreak on Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:47 am; edited 3 times in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAITEK HOTAS X36/45 ONLY

Baadf00d wrote:
X36 /X45 Owners :-
Up to date drivers

http://vega.dyndns.org/x36/ is the best place to pick up the latest versions of Dhauzimmer's X36/X45 driver. Currently at version 2.105

In fact, keep the hell away from Ron Hunts http://saitekhelp.simhq.com/ site - not only are the drivers there damn old (and unstable on some systems (mine) but his advice on calibration is WRONG.

When using Dhauzimmer's drivers you absolutely MUST NOT use the "Gaming Options" control panel applet to calibrate your Saitec x45/x36 stick. Doing so will cause ... problems. Simply use the Gaming Options applet to reset the stick, and calibrate the stick using the provided "calib.bat" file in the Dhauzimmer driver zip file.

Likewise, go here http://www.mindspring.com/~haphazard/HazardScript/ for the latest HazardScript.

Extreme Joystick Accuracy

Morats useful scripts are not all that can be done using these drivers. X45 and x36 owners can now work around a bug in Jumpgates deadzone implementation that means one cannot make fine adjustments.

Run the following commands using the query tool:

query.exe -z 1 2 5
query.exe -z 2 2 5

These will set the center X & center Y deadzones in the driver to 5 in this case. As a result you can go into Jumpgate and set the deadzone to 0. With a driver implemented deadzone, when the joystick is at 11% - 1% outside the deadzone, the effective turn rate is now 1%, not the unscaled 11% that Jumpgates "Deadzone" leaves you with. Ah - the ability to make fine adjustments to ones aim!
Baadf00d wrote:
hehe - Its just that im rather excited now that Ive *finally* gotten the damn stick to use more than 9 buttons in Jumpgate.

One more thing, HazardScript is getting a bit old (apparently) :-

XDProfile http://xdprofile.freebirdswing.org/ seems to be a better alternative to HazardScript.

would be nice if you cleared this up a bit, Baad :jump:
DaffyKosh wrote:
Rotary1= the dial on top-front part of the throttle
Rotary2= the dial below fire D
And before you ask:
Mouse = that ibm thinkpaddish knob next to rotary2
And a little hint from personal experience:
Use electrical tape or something similar to enforce (sp?) parts of the cords that connect to stick and usb-port.
Then you don't have to worry about damage to cord from it twisting and hanging freely. (This from someone who had to introduce mr. Soldering Iron to his X36's connections already).
Morat wrote:
As for the registry keys, there are at least 30. You will have to search for them using the search option and "Saitek" and then "X45". Then reinstall the Dhalzimmer drivers and calibrate. Don't use the calibration tool in control panel/gaming options or it will screw up the whole lot again

You are going to have to edit your registry. There is no option. The Readme included in the Dhalzimmer drivers gives you the correct procedure.
Wyx wrote:
Why do I get the feeling you lot could go on like this for months ;)
Baadf00d wrote:
The DH drivers are autocalibrating in their default mode - they activly monitor the joysticks output and re-calibrate on the fly as more extreme x & y values are detected.

The reason that uysing windows calibration is not recomended is you end up calibrating the virtualized co-ordinate system that the DH drivers re-calibrate on the fly already.

That is, DHs drivers generate joystick position data in the range 0-65536 with 32768 as the center position.

The joystick itself has only 8 bit precision and generates some number between 0 and 255 - far left on my joystick is something like 60 and far right is 220 so the full range isnt used.

Now - the DH drivers always emit '0' for the left most position yet detected, and 65535 for the rightmost position (of the x-axis at least ).

This means that using windows calibration is an essentially useless act - in the best case it does absolutely nothing - in the worst it will render the stick unusable as DHs drivers wont know that windows thinks the range is smaller than 0-65535, and will continue to generate the full range of outputs.

If you think that windows calibration has done something for you - you are wrong. Resetting the windows calibration data should make the stick work better. really.
Baadf00d wrote:
1. The DHauzer drivers are for the Saitek X36 and X45 HOTAS sticks only. Inferior Cyborg users will ahve to deal with the default drivers or whatever crud Saitek dishes up.

2. using XDProfile I have made a test config with three modes. For the moment the modes are M1: DEFAULT, M2:Short Range Mission, and M3:Combat.

DEFAULT is a straight mapping of all the Saitek buttons straight thru to their normal directX mappings - for the most part at least.

Short Range Mission - adds some axis programmibility - throttle settings above 90% automatically engage AB, and im toying with automatic activation of brakes at 0 throttle -not sure if thats such a good idea.

For the combat mode Im toying with making AB a toggle - press the big red button "D" to activate AB, then again to deactivate.

Other things I was thinking of was to map the rotary knobs on the throttle to the radar range and radar mode selection's but because JG uses a looping cycle... it would sorta suck.

Im busy cleaning up the scripts - if anyone is interested post here and Ill upload my current version.



*muffy's head explodes as he tries to comprehend this post*
abandon hope all ye who enter
(a few posts down from that is me giving them the url to the official saitek forums)

*muffy runs off to hug his logitech trackball mouse tightly*
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Guest






PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MightyGames forum thread
Here's one on "favorite joystick"
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2002 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's an old umec topic from Feb2002 about problems/solutions
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2002 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaadF00d wrote:
Force Feedback is all bad.
The resistance is lagged and artificial feeling, and the force feedback itself thows off your aim.
DONT get one. If you are unlucky enough to have one, at least turn off the feedback.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2002 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More recommendations
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaadF00d wrote:
Crap Joystick < Mouse < Good Joystick.

With a good quality digital Joystick - you can turn the deadzone in Jumpgate right off. The HOTAS Cougar has 16 bit axis resolution - the Saitek X45 has a 16bit axis resolution if you use the unofficial Dhauzimmer drivers.

The quality of the potentiometers, coupled with the 16bit axis resolution - means that these joysticks are capable of finer control than even the mouse is capable of providing.

The mouse is implemented as a virtual Joystick - if youre playing in 1024x768 - that gives the mouse "Joystick" a 10 bit axis resolution (the horizontal axis has the range -512 -> 0 -> 511)

vs a standard stick (e.g. crappy Logitek Wingman) with 8 bits of resolution which doesnt normally use the complete range -108 -> 0 -> 108 and bad potentiometers that mean you need a big dead zone to avoid the large random changes in output.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aureus wrote:
Hello fellow X45 users :)

After I finally got my brand new X45 I encountered some problems.
Yes, I'm aware of Morats's thread in Intersting Things, but still some problems remain.
    My setup:
  • DH 2.105b Drivers
  • XD Profile 0.95b
  • baadfoot's profile from Interesting Things thread
  • original joystick.bin and control.bin (the *.bins from Morat didn't work for me, they left my ship spin uncontrolalbly)
  • German JG client
Of course I completly deinstalled the Saitek drivers and manually deleted any registry entries containing "X45" or "Saitek".
The keys shown in XD Profile don't map right in JG.
For example according to XD Profile the Button C is "Jump"
For me in JG Simulator Button C is "Brake"
Button D should be Brake, but it is AB.
Zoom should be Pinkie Switch but it M3 sometimes. Sometimes it is Button D.
To load the profile I compiled the .xdp I stole from baadfoot into a .bpf.
I then load the profile via query jg.bpf
Is there anything I am missing?
BaadF00d wrote:
Ok. This whole Joystick programming thing all works by accident.

Using XDP, you create a script that tells the DH Drivers what direct X & keyboard events to generate when the physical buttons are pressed.

The joystick.bin and controls.bin files on the other hand tell Jumpgate what game functions to activate in response to DirectX events or key presses.

To get an XDP profile working smoothly then, it is both necessary to tell XDP what direct X events to generate, but also to tell jumpgate which functions to activate in response to those events.

The default control.bin and Joystick.bin files only contain entries for the first 8 direct X buttons.

So, the steps for getting everything working smoothly are:
1. compile the xdp into a bpf file and load that using query.exe
2. Use the "Gaming Options" control panel applett to verify which direct X buttons are being triggered in response to physical button presses.
3. Load Jumpgate, and go to controls. For each control that is currently bound to either a different button, or a key - click on it, and press the appropriate button on the joystick to reprogram Jumpgate.
4. Click save. Remember this step. Otherwise it wont (save that is).

Notes:
If you are trying to use my XDP profile - its quite advanced - the button bindings arnt static - several physical buttons will - depnding on the state of other buttons - cause different DirectX events to fire off.

For example: if the mode select button is set to M1 - then the big red button on the throttle - 'D' - will either fire off direct X button 7 if the throttle is at 0, or button 6 if pressed when the throttle is above 20%.

In Jumpgate you have to set the throttle to zero, click on "Brake" to rebind that, and press the button to bind "Brake" to button 7. Then set the throttle to 100%, click on "AfterBurner" and press on the big red button to tell Jumpgate to bind AfterBurner to button 6.

So then, you have the same physical button - button 'D" generating two different virtual Direct X button events - for buttons 7, and 6 - that you tell Jumpgate to use for brakes and AB respectively.

I would have posted my .bin files to that thread - but it didnt allow file attachments


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joystick drifting?

Throttle problems?

Thorshmr wrote:
The X45 has a twist feature.....just not located in the same place as on a stick like the cyborg or a precision pro.

What users of normal "twister" sticks (which I'm now an official FORMER member of ) are use to is now located in a horizontally opposed rocker switch in the forward face of the throttle handle.

The twist feature of modern day joysticks is nothing more than a "rudder" control that's been applied to everything from pitch/yaw of spacecraft to turret rotation on tanks and battlemechs. Getting used to it on the left side and in a non-rotating structure isn't all that difficult (at least I seem to be getting the hang of it with little ill effects....ie. splashes).

The setup is admittedly awkward for someone used to the handyness of having the twist located in the base of the stick itself. And the X45's rocker twist button takes some getting used to if you have short fingers like me due to the overlarge throttle handle itself to make room for the ton of buttons it has.

Yes, I still find myself, in the heat of concentration on a target, wanting to twist the stick itself...then remembering it's under my lefthand fingers....but I just laugh at myself and go on.

As far as getting mine to work....once I had the new drivers downloaded off Saitek's site and installed....it was pure bliss from the first second after launching. With the resistance on the throttle movement now dialed in to a comfortable amount for me.

In short, if you can swing the $80 or so, I highly recommend this stick to all flight/space sim afficianados....it's very fun to use and the amount of buttons actually is more than you need to get absolutely every command function off the keyboard and under your fingertips.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more stuff (from november)
hmmm...just a placeholder for now. I'll get around to quoting stuff from there. can't be arsed atm.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorshmr wrote:
Like JumpDemon, I'm thoroughly pleased with my X45! Yes, it did take quite a bit of getting used to, but now that I've got a groove on it, it's nothing but sweet.

Just make sure you download the newest drivers from Saitek's website or it won't work right in Jumpgate....mine barely worked until I downloaded those drivers and it's worked absolutely perfectly since.

Buttons are all in good, easy access positions. In fact, you can map everything in the Jumpgate options panel to a button on either the stick or the throttle and still have quite a number of unused buttons left. You can even map directional pushes on any of the three hat domes to button functions.

I only have two real complaints, but they're mild ones that...because I like the stick setup in general...I put up with.

1) The safety cap over the missile firing button can make getting a snapshot missile off rather clumsy. I superglued a small piece of sheet plastic on it's top so it protrudes over the edge of the cap slightly and gives a "lip" for my thumbnail to flip the cap up when I want to fire a missile.

2) The space between the main trigger and the pinky switch is rather limiting on players with large hands. I have average sized hands and I still find that sometimes I hit the pinky switch accidentally....but I have that switch mapped as to my breaking thrusters so it's pretty much deactivated while I'm throttled up. What I do to try and keep off that button until it's needed is lay my pinky up over the back of my ring finger in a comfortable fashion.

One more thing to go with the driver's tip up above....there's a setscrew on the bottom of the throttle that either adds or subtracts tension on the pot controlled by the throttle handle. I like a quick throttle so mine's set fairly loose. Just play with it some and tweek it til you get it comfortable for you.

Finally, the X45 is definately NOT a stick setup you can hold in your lap like alot of players I know that do that with their Precisions/Sidewinders/Cyborgs. And anything resembling combat in Jumpgate will have you chasing both pieces of the X45 around your desktop trying to operate them. Anchor them to the desktop.

Both units have cammed lockholes on the bottom of the bases so that you can latch them onto screwheads threaded into the desktop.....but unless you don't care about your desktop, I wouldn't recommend anchoring the modules that way. What I did was go to the hardware store and grab a couple of feet of sticky backed velcroe. Take the two sides of the velcroe and mash the hooked part into the fuzzy part, then cut eight 2 inch strips. Take the paper backing off ONE side of each pair and stick it to the bottom of the modules....one strip along each of the four edges on the bottom of each module. Then pull the remaining paper backings off and stick each module down to your desktop. Slightly wiggle each module as you stick it down to get a good mashing on the glue and it'll hold better.

The way I have mine set up is....I have a standard 101 key keyboard that is placed directly in front of my monitor, the stick is mounted to the desk immediately to the right butted up against the right side of the keyboard. The throttle module is mounted the same way on the opposite side of the keyboard (on the left). Finally, my mouse on it's pad rest to the right of the stick.

Now, I have a fairly large desk, so this setup might not be possible for everyone....but you will have to find a way to anchor both modules to the desk....the stick/throttle would be extremely difficult to manipulate effectively if they aren't.

Hope this helps some.....lemme know
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyborg 3D Gold USB & XP
Sykes76 wrote:
Up until last week I used to get two problems using my Cyborg with JG, ie JG wouldn't recognise the throttle and every couple of days the Cyborg would not be picked up at all by XP, even though it was plugged in. If anyone else is having these problems with a Cyborg 3D then you could try this work around...

1) Unplug your Cyborg and uninstall the Saitek drivers.
2) Install SD02_1 available form the Saitek downloads page.
3) Unplug your Cyborg and run NukeUsb and Nukebus found in C:\Program files\saitek\drivers dir (make sure to select your Cyborg in the NukeUsb box).
4) Plug your Cyborg back in and XP should reinstall it.
5) Check everythings setup ok in your control config prog (in the control panel).

If your Cyborg is working fine, run JG and head to the sim - you should now have a throttle again.

I'm not sure if this will work with other Saitek devices running on Win XP, but it might be worth a try - and far easier than asking them for advice or trolling their forums.
Excelsior wrote:
I hear they are no longer making the Cyborg Gold in a few months. And I used to have one but I stressed it out playing Jumpgate.

Look into the X45 since you are already not used to the terrible twist! X45 owners know what I am talking about.
Gawl wrote:
Do your self a favor.....get an x45. As for the rocker arm pyl....you get used to it real quick. Excelsior converted me to an x45, and I love the thing so much, that it has become a permanent fixture on my desk. It took me about a week to get totally used to it, but after that, the only thing the keyboard is good for is typing. I have ever button in jg mapped to this stick, and STILL have buttons to spare.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The FFPro & FF2 & PPro2 debate
muffy uses mouse...getting confused about silly throttle jockey sp33k
Ventman wrote:
Not really a PvP expert, but I do know one thing, get a stick with a central spring instead of one for each axis. the Sidewinder PPro2 has 3 springs: pitch, yaw, roll. This adds precision to moving on the individual axis, but really hinders your performance when you yaw and pitch together, rolling isn't affected as much. The first PPro had a central spring, which gives equal force no matter what combination of yawing and pitching. Some people like the FFPro's with the feedback and spring simulating off, so the stick is extremely loose and won't give you any resistance.

Personally, I don't like the Cyborg 3d Gold, the stick is a bit too stiff for me, and it's not 'screwdriver friendly'. When you open it up, you'll find all the electrical connections mucked up with hot glue. I've given my PPro2 at least 2 tune-up's with new switches all around and it's lasted me a good 2 years now.
Zaltys wrote:
I use a PPro2. It's a good stick, but there is a bit of difficulty switching between each axis. To combat this I use an extremely small deadzone (0 in JG, and lowered in the drivers as well). This means that if you let go of the stick you will drift, but you can do slight adjustments on a different axis without encountering the spring resistance.
Havik wrote:
FF2. I did have a PP2, but that thing had a whole lot of bad qualities imho, so I gave up on it and bought liet's stick. The FF2 has a much nicer resistance level, making it easier to make little corrections. Plus the thing doesn't drift
SeveN_of_9 wrote:
I also used a cyborg 3d gold usb with windows XP for the first 9 months of my jumpgate life , i eventually wore it out and stole a FF2 from my hubbies store and have since used it .

The cyborg was a little large for my hands and grip but i got used to it . The microsoft one has its own power cord to power the resistance but make sure you turn off the force feedback in jumpgate settings .

I also tried Logitech ( lasted 4 days before it broke) , Thrustmaster ( throttle was in a really stupid position ) , and an original microsoft pro ( broke )

remember guys .. IT WAS THE MICROSOFT FF2 THAT WON THE PRIZE FIGHT AGAINST LIET !!!!!!!!!
Liet wrote:
Microsoft Force Feedback2! Precise bastard, and of much finer quality than the PP2, which feels as though it's made of scavenged dashboard plastic and weighs 2oz.
Strych9 wrote:
The PP2 isnt that bad. When you take your hand off it, it stays centered. The FF2 has a sensor, and only stays centered when you have your hand on the stick. Take your hand off, and it has the chance of slumping to one side or the other.

But yeah, the FF2 does feel good when flying.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2003 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Achilles wrote:
I have been using a Sidewinder Precision Pro 2 for my time in Jumpgate, love it, about to wear mine out, bought one for my wife. There are probably better sticks out there, but I love my Sidewinder.

Also, I am a PC Games Shop Owner, and I had no end of trouble with Saitek Sticks. I got a batch of ten, sold 9, got all 9 returned, and sent them all back to the supplier. Now from what I have read, it seems that Saitek have improved, but I won't touch them. Also, I have noticed Logitech's alarming slide in quality.
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HiTekHick
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Posts: 566
Location: The sticks!

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 3:12 pm    Post subject: HiTekHick's X45 config Reply with quote

The original post (until the next purge).

After sitting down with an Excel spreadsheet, I finally came up whit a combination for the X45 I like - using some of the ideas that others posted previously.

I also figured out how to make the Rotary Switches tie into scrolling the text - Rotary 1 is for 5 lines at a time, and Rotary 2 is for continuous scroll. This will help when you are out in space and someone says something and you just missed it before it went off the screen.

Another mod is to have the Aux switch perform multiple functions, AB, Zoom, Scan, and Take Picture are all done with the switch - but it does matter what mode it is in for all but AB.

I'm also attaching my file (until the above thread is purged?)so that everyone can modify it to their heart's content - just rename it to Jumpgate.dat and place it in your Saitek configuration folder.

Note: Don't forget to rename this file to Jumpgate.dat and place it in your Saitek folder. To be able to use this, you may have to reconfigure some commands in Jumpgate too.

Code:
Combat                     Keyboard  X45
Fire Gun                             Trigger
Fire Missile                         Launch
Toggle Gun                 G         Hat2 Up
Toggle Missile             N         Hat2 Down
Change Firing Mode         F         Hat2 Left

Display
Toggle HUD                 H
Display 3D HUD             D
Framerate                  A

MODx
FlashFire                  L         Mode1/Button D
Scan                       S         Mode2/Aux2
Picture                    P         Mode2/Aux2
PWD 1000                   X         Mode2/Button D
Zoom                       Z         Mode1/Aux2

Basic
Afterburn                  U         Aux1
Brake                      R         Mouse Fire Button
Jump                       J         Pinkie Switch
Map                        M         Hat2 Right
Scroll Chat Up             Pg Up     Custom
Scroll Chat Down           Pg Down   Custom

Radar
Radar Group                E         Hat3 Up
Radar Range                R         Hat3 Down
Next Target                ]         Button A
Previous Target            [         Button B
Nearest Target             \         Hat3 Right
Target Last Agressor                 Hat3 Left
Target With Reticle                  Button C

View
View Front
View Left                            Hat1 Left
View Right                           Hat1 Right
View Up                              Hat1 Up
View Behind                          Hat1 Down
External                   6
Free Look                  `

Custom
50 L. Mouse Button Clicks            Mode 3/Mouse Right
Scroll Chat 5 lines up/down          Rotary 1
Continuous Scroll Chat up/down       Rotary 2
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leuphan wrote:
Saitek x45 Help
is there a work around for the problem with some x45s not being able to be configured in Jumpgate? (i.e. the AUX switch is always active so it keeps you from being able to set other buttons for things in jumpgate.)
Elpirata wrote:
It doesnt has to be a defect. I had that trouble myself too, everytime I wanted to assign a button to a function the mode switch would kick in, and I mean everytime, and that was resolved right after installing the latest X45 drivers from Saitek, not the ones from the fans.

And it is working, so before you decide to NOT be without a stick... better try this option... if it doesnt work... then send it to them as Sylvester suggested.
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