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JG Economics 101 (warning: probably obsolete)

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2002 5:28 am    Post subject: JG Economics 101 (warning: probably obsolete) Reply with quote

JOSSH recruiting poster (US server) (EU server)


NICE QUOTES FROM THE EU SERVER...
Chute wrote:
Is there a nice, concise breakdown of whats produced where, what you need to make equipment, where its made etc etc. Also an explanation of 1st and 2nd tier commods cos I have no idea. I'm sure I could trawl Josh for the info and write it up all nice and neat and check my spelling, but whats the point if someone else has?
Cail wrote:
Get webtracker from www.slopey.com. Right clicking on any piece of equipment will tell you where its made and what you need to make it. Also, timski's Widget has similar information. Pick an item of equipment and it tells you what is needed and where to get it.
_Nellie wrote:
See above. If you want to know whats made where and so on Timskis widget gets my vote. If you want to know how much of it is about the place then Webtracker is about as handy as it gets. Here's a quick explanation:
  • 1st tier commods: Raw materials, spawn on stations or are produced through mining [EP2 feature/tweak]. Base metals (iron, copper etc), water, grain, lumber that sort of gubbins are all tier 1 commods. {{Muffy says: some things like textiles aren't mined but are 1st tier}}
  • 2nd tier commods: produced through the combination of certain tier 1 (and 2 in some cases) commods on stations. Lug Cobalt and Iron to Solrain and you get Magnetics. Electronics, Fuel Cells, Magnetics, RF transceivers are all tier 2 commods.
For an introduction to the Jumpgate economy you could do a lot worse than take a look at Trading 101 by Timski again.


NICE QUOTES FROM THE US SERVER...
Xerout wrote:
New Economic Primer - mining/hauling/producing
We need one. With the new dependence on mining our own materials for critical products I think a defined road map of how and where everything is produced would be of great help. Perhaps TRI could announce more useful station needs. For example instead of "GBS is in great need of water" how about "Amanth is in great need of copper used in producing....etc." Or even better have equipment shortage announcements like "Hyperial station is not producing dreams due to a lack of xxxx."

Just throwing out an idea here. As a casual player if I had a road map on what to do hauling and mining wise without having to do a lot of research I'd have more fun.
NadaTarget wrote:
Great idea...I was just starting to figure out EP1 commerce...I feel like I've had my econ knowledge reset to 0. I don't mind doing research, but it would be great to have an RP starting point on Jossh to determine how I want to conduct mining/hauling missions.
wrote:
JGTools
DicE_BAR's Spreadsheet
Those are good economy info resources.

Use JGWebtracker or Market Listers on Planetnetdevil or Jumpgateweb to find inventory levels. Those programs also have or are adding inventory info for public POS.

When moving commods from faction stations, always review where the commod is produced and determine if it is consumed at the station you are removing it from (hence, making removal a bad thing).

MyRotacol
DSA Mining Report
Those are some links to useful mining information.

And when all else fails (or you need some help with this stuff in-game), there are always those of us in squads like -=G-O-D=- and -=MACK=- who (sadly but we enjoy it) eat, sleep, and sh!t the economy. Look us up anytime.







Losar (US server) wrote:
I think all commodaties are important. THey are what makes this galaxy work. Yes I know that the BCU incident sucked. BUt also look at the other issues, we have 2 whole factions not produing anything thanks to some individuals as well. Have the GMS stepped in and done anything about that. Not really. They are letting that issue roleplay out(or waiting for the patch to fix the econamy again). I am not saying that I think it is a bad idea, but they need to keep a standard. From what I have heard on the grapevine, the BCU incident was a retaliation for Quant hijinks elseware.

Now i Know i tend to ramble a bit. But it does seem to me that with two factions not producing squat, and the GM's allowing it to roleplay out, and then witht eh GM's fix on one issue. I kinda dont think that is right. I personal would have let things play out. If the Quants wanted to make bcu's then they should have been ready to go out in force and TOW the commods to make them.

I hope the issues with Hype and Aman play out soon, ause the way the economy is going it can only get worse.
~Losar [reference0029]

Muffy: I'm assuming his chatter about tows hauling commods TO MAKE THINGS was a roleplaying suggestion and he/she doesn't know it's physically possible to make this stuff without GM intervention. (in fact i'm sure he's clueless that hauling ORE makes commods when sold to market, let alone equipment from commods).


Let's assume the person saying the above is asking a legitimate n00b question. (reasonable; a n00b might not realize what impact players CAN have on the economy...especially after people whining about how little part we can play without massive GM intervention with "events" that mirror our roleplaying)

okay, let's start out with a n00b context
  1. GM's doing the Hyperial & Amananth production ceasations because of player storyline is a major factor
  2. The fact that daily existence for low level n00bs isn't much affected by this
  3. And the fact that the lack of Aluminum from Octavia is a bug is confusing when a n00b can't tell the difference
  4. Again, a n00b has little worries about how this affects his/her personal playstyle (ie. crash crash ooops #@$%$% crash. why do i luff this *CRASH* game?)
  5. factor into this he see massive amounts of commodities popping into station markets and wonders who the hell's doing all the mining? It must be GM's artificially infusing stations - cause he's damned sure he doesn't see many player miners
  6. Add to that trying to get a station to produce aluminum from common ore is next to impossible for a n00b, so he/she figures it isn't possible *OOC*
  7. The n00b also doesn't realize that stations produce items via combining ingredients (figures it's probably just another "artificial infusion")
So you've got n00bs who will drop their jaws in utter amazement when you tell them using custom producers/science factories to make things is inefficient and that most merchants know how to get station markets to produce a certain item from ingredients...Almost a daily routine to a n00b who thinks the closest we come to economic simulation is when Hyp/Aman stop producing stuff because the GM's say so.

The Aluminum shortage must be really confusing, because it's a bug (and that detracts from n00b understanding like there's no tomorrow)...plus, the fact that it's ACTUALLY POSSIBLE to sell common ore to station to make aluminum.

capiche? Too a n00b this must all be pretty amazing - They probably stop and wonder why we're whining about a pretty cool economy simulation we have already.


==========================
UMEC holds innumerable threads on the subject of economy. This subject should not be taken lightly, nor as the way we prefer things. Some of the data may be false because we really don't know the coding done.

PUBLIC
Go here for Advanced Economic Discussions
Artifacts 101
Mining 101
JG Trading 101
Miscellaneous n00b queries vol.4
Miscellaneous n00b queries vol.5
FAQ for new tow pilots? (includes link to MACK trucking guide)
New pilot's ways to make money?
Commodity cost/mass and profit %
Does armour and ammo get used up on docking? (includes official production consumption article)
What is, "Matter Farming"?

What GM_Josh thinks of "farming"
Armchair pokes in for an update
EU's roundtable economy discussion
New cargo mission tweak buggy
PJG pimps JG to PennyArcade

Muffy's 4 priority checklist for gameplay/content fixes
Brainstorming session
PJG's old brainstorming thread (archive)
JG Macroeconomics?
Short term economy fixes?
Corporations and Stock Markets?
TRI, STCC Commence Farming Inquiries
Ideas on fixing the market
Automated Fix the Economy Reply
GM_Archon on the economy roundtable
Doable Economy Jury-rig suggestion
MMOG economics: EQ versus JG
new Debunking the BPC & Merchant Prince Myths new

REGISTERED ACCESS
Baadf00d loses it (inflation)
Flame war comments (whiteswan)
Farming and the Pirate Debate
Flame war comments (lytefoot)
Critiques of Llama economic essays
Automated Reply to the misuse of the scale concept
A new look at an old flame war with GM_Archon

Automatic Complaint Generator

SQUAD ACCESS
The evils of Lexxor Corporation
Iron on the EU server
POS! where to place?
Poor Man's Guide to Towing

COMMAND STAFF ONLY
Classified Classified Classified Classified Classified Classified Classified


MIGHTYGAMES LINKS
Timski over on EU server summed up the current economy quite nicely here.
And Xindaan clarified what "Station Decay" means here.
Finally, MadCat pointed me out to a thread on the Aluminum bugs here



Appendix
DATABASE threads:
RF transceivers (n00b questions/rumormill) [reference0030]
Where is all the aluminum going? (*OOC* research board) [reference0031]
Why is X only built in Y? (*IC* justification debate) [reference0032]
Carbon. where is it? (jossh inaccuracies) [reference0033]


Addendum:
Mining fix suggestion (needs renovation)
obsolete archive of this thread on the ND forums













(UMEC's version of JOSSH recruiting posters)


Last edited by MajorFreak on Sat Mar 29, 2003 7:11 pm; edited 23 times in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duodecimal discovered ore price = commod prices [reference0031; bottom of thread]
DuoDecimal wrote:
One thing everyone missed when looking at these data that is very significant:
Code:

Commod. Units    Unit-% Unit-Mass Total-Mass  Mass-%
----------------------------------------------------
Ore     200.00   1.0      8,000    1,497,680  1.0
Al       14.00   0.0748   2,702       37,828  0.0253
Cr        2.00   0.0107   7,190       14,380  0.0096
Cu        4.00   0.0214   8,960       35,840  0.0239
Fe       37.00   0.1976   7,860      290,820  0.1942
Mg        6.00   0.0320   1,738       10,428  0.0070
Ti        6.00   0.0320   4,540       27,240  0.0182
Zn        5.00   0.0267   7,130       35,650  0.0238
Take the above unit outputs and apply it to the unit prices:
Code:

Commod. Units  Unit-Price  Total-Price
--------------------------------------
Ore     200.00    1,100     220,000 

Al       14.00    2,330      32,620 
Cr        2.00    2,760       5,520 
Cu        4.00    8,070      32,280 
Fe       37.00    1,740      64,380 
Mg        6.00    2,120      12,720 
Ti        6.00   10,600      63,600 
Zn        5.00    1,510       7,550 

Sum:                        218,670
I used average market prices for the unit prices of the ores and commodities, so the difference is probably a rounding error.
    I had suspected something like this before and that was one of the reasons I asked for the list prices of all commodities and ores.
We may reasonably assume that the price of a unit of ore is equal to the sum of the values of the refined materials therein. The only problem is finding the exact ratios. Anyone up to organize a big Unreg research expedition? Unless someone manages to find Lothar's earlier work (which may or may not be outdated by now), it may be interesting to dump a couple hundred units of each of the four remaining ore types sequentially and see what the exact ratios are. These ratios can then be verified by the above pricing test (if it holds for more than just the common ore).

Okay, first off they used this data to form the above tables:
GBS station stock before dump
Ore to be dumped (common only)
GBS station stock after dump
Kenndogg actually did our calculations for us
Code:
Commod. Units    Unit-% Unit-Mass Total-Mass  Mass-%
----------------------------------------------------
Ore     187.21   1.0      8,000    1,497,680  1.0
Al       14.00   0.0748   2,702       37,828  0.0253
Cr        2.00   0.0107   7,190       14,380  0.0096
Cu        4.00   0.0214   8,960       35,840  0.0239
Fe       37.00   0.1976   7,860      290,820  0.1942
Mg        6.00   0.0320   1,738       10,428  0.0070
Ti        6.00   0.0320   4,540       27,240  0.0182
Zn        5.00   0.0267   7,130       35,650  0.0238
The "14:1" ratio for ore to Aluminum is tested and true. For a complete rundown on all roid compositions regarding ore refinement into commods, please see this post

Last edited by MajorFreak on Fri Nov 08, 2002 9:37 am; edited 4 times in total
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Rainy13
US Advisor
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Joined: 03 Oct 2001
Posts: 374
Location: Sunny Florida

PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That information is interesting... but it only proves that ND made yet another mistake.

Where IRL has a miner ever earned retail price for the ore he delivers? The refined commodities produced should be MUCH more valuable than the miner gets paid for.

According to the math above, the 200 units ore only refine into 67ish units of commodities? Where's the other 2/3? Make them. A 3:1 refining bonus for the stations is hardly unreasonable - you ever hear the markup a diamond company makes versus what they pay miners for delivering uncut stones? The difference in pay is a lot higher than 3:1.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trading 101 :)
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timski
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Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now I've remebered to log myself in before posting, I can add what I forgot to mention on the previous post :eyespin: :

Updated urls for widget: http://jg.capsu.org/ and http://www.jumpgatecenter.com/triish/JGW/.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:dolt:
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DicE_BAR wrote:
With the production matched with JOSSH, I made a spreadsheet which lists commodities required for production, and where they are produced (for both commodities and equipment). This version is completely identical to JOSSH-data, so things like Custom Producers, Nano Assemblers and RB's aren't listed at the moment (planned for next version).

JGDatasheet v0.92 (excel-file, if you don't have excel, use this to open it), I recommend using "Save Target As..." as it takes rather long to load using IE...
    Note: To read the production centers, just hold your cursor over the item and a pop-up will appear (it's a question I've had a few times already, thought I'd add it).


Please note that this is oriented towards the US server and it's peculiar production tweaks for RP purposes (beggars can't be choosers)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EP2 RELEASE (EP2 FAQ)
Cail wrote:
Here is a list of commods that no longer seem to be produced at the traditional sources:

  • Aluminium (? to be confirmed. There was a s**tload on the market when EP2 was applied) Current JG Stock : 3382
  • Barium 130
  • Boron 4077
  • Cesium 660
  • Chromium 3317
  • Copper 3
  • Gallium (only produced at Tripoint now?) 3284
  • Indium (production moved to Corridor?) 2158
  • Iron 148
  • Magnesium 401
  • Titanium (production moved to Cornea?) 3100
Items marked in bold are in very short supply. I will update this list in a few days to see how badly the economy is in trouble ;) Let me know if there are any omissions or mistakes.


Combine this with Hugo-Rune's ore refinement research here and one gets a pretty good handle on how things have changed from EP1
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BadMrFrostyUK wrote:
Maximum profit.... Low level pilot
Im currently lvl 12 and was wondering the best way of getting some hard cash.... FAST. Done combat runs, and trading is pointless cause I have only 1 cargo space. Thinking about upgrading and mining. How profitable is this? Any ideas m8's Thanks
Valentine wrote:
Cargo Mission

There's good cash in there.
Take a little trip from Great Pillars to Octavius Core,
Cargo Mission 2 gives a Vanadium mission normally. Quick 1k profit.
And hte product itself is only 21k, so shouldn't take long before you can afford 1 or 2 units of that stuff.
Afte doing a number of those, you might be able to afford some Ammunition because Great Pillars wants you to transport this heavy stuff to Octavius Depot every now and again. There's a 3.6k profit per unit in this run.
And Octavius Core likes to ship Explosives to Octavius Depot, which gives you about 4.6k profit, per unit.

Not bad at all, those cargo missions. (The missions in example are Octavian System runs, since I haven't done much hauling outside of Oct yet.) Of course, there is the BPC (Best Profit Calc.) But this thing only thinks of the user, and not the economy. Not that the Cargo Missions have that in mind, but that's another story altogether. Well, I don't know if you can use what I just typed, but maybe you can
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Heretic
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Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject: FTP transfer between mindphyre and razorskiss complete Reply with quote

insane
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