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The new JG: Small town community in a big world.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: The new JG: Small town community in a big world. Reply with quote

So yeah, I never thought I would find a group of people so assured in their self importance and narrow mindedness then the Minmatar. I was proven wrong.

Apparently in JG it's even worse if one has a different viewpoint then one that tows the company line. Here's a post where I talk to some DE about their lock down, I start at the bottom of page 3.

http://forums.jossh.com/showthread.php?s=b8a58f2176acce9654e593a017ba2b0d&threadid=24801

Now I hardly said anything very offencive and the one major thing I did say against them I recanted after they informed me they hired people to operate their cartels. However this wasn't enough, apparently now I'm some guy named "DireCoyte" and I'm supposed to appear on JPR so they can get drunk or something. I'm not too sure what this has to do with the origional discussion, however they wouldn't let the issue drop.

Personally these guys make the Minmat RPers look like Socrates. They have no concept of any other view point then their own.

Muffy, you were right, the moral of the story is:
DON'T PLAY JUMPGATE

Oh well, Planetside is fun too.
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Ambrosius
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better yet, PLAY JUMPGATE and forget about the JOSSH Forums if you are thin-skinned.
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stfu, ambro.

It's ironic that any 'roleplay' thread invariably gets created in 'flame war' forum...sad, isn't it? Simply that act alone removes all doubt as to mr. Ambrosius' reply as anything but tepid.




lmao
please, not another 'blockade' storyline. It's not that i don't like them, it's just that the veteran trolls simply cannot think outside the box anymore beyond OOC nitpicking...they've actually got it in their thick skulls that this sort of behavior IS in-character.
    actually, whenever i see this sort of storyline appear, i look around for something ELSE that this group is trying to steal the spotlight on - that storyline is the one i find is usually more interesting and engaging than the cookiecutter showstealer
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Razage
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, this isn't about the forums at all actually.

This is about the in ability for a trader to make money and then people just can fess up that this is what they're doing and now I'm a pirate for promoting free space economics, hmm, funny how that works.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need the whaaaambulance.

Muffy, read more. It's not a blockade RP for the sake of it, it's a control on the solrain economy to prevent thoughtless players from screwing up production. Equipment and FM commods are not anywhere near as easy to come by any more, and that sort of thing needs doing.

Razage, you made your point in the first couple of posts (which was fair enough - 'I don't like being controlled, therefore I choose not to haul'). You infuse your posts with the air of innocence-abused, and continue to argue minor points forever. Your suggestion that the service was not requested is disingenuous. Both FM completion and equip production have been requested by players. DE were doing what had to be done to accomplish that. You were being deliberately antagonistic, since despite your protestations you clearly have a problem with what DE did.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
I think we need the whaaaambulance.

Muffy, read more. It's not a blockade RP for the sake of it, it's a control on the solrain economy to prevent thoughtless players from screwing up production. Equipment and FM commods are not anywhere near as easy to come by any more, and that sort of thing needs doing.

Razage, you made your point in the first couple of posts (which was fair enough - 'I don't like being controlled, therefore I choose not to haul'). You infuse your posts with the air of innocence-abused, and continue to argue minor points forever. Your suggestion that the service was not requested is disingenuous. Both FM completion and equip production have been requested by players. DE were doing what had to be done to accomplish that. You were being deliberately antagonistic, since despite your protestations you clearly have a problem with what DE did.


I say just let the equipment run out. Trying to control it isn't stimulating the economy. Money would be a lot easier to make if routes were re-opened and everyone simply let all the equipment use itself up. The game wasn't ment to be run with so few people, especially with so few mining. The "New Economy" is simply going to be the downfall of the game, not that it's not already in a downfall really.

However I don't have so much of a problem with the action itself so much as the attitude that I should be thanking them for limiting my options of play. Not gonna happen, and if they want to have a thread about it, then I'm going to poke holes in their little "We're doing this for everyone and therefore we're awsome." attitude. Nobody is going to thank them for limiting other people's play options, they'll have to deal with the hatemail just like everyone else.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. It's an MMO. By indiscriminately screwing the economy, you negatively affect their gameplay because they have no equip. They're not the only ones limiting play options.

2. By 'stimulating the economy', people usually mean making equipment available. Possibly a misuse of the phrase, but meh. Much fewer people care about the ease of making their first trillion than they do about not having to trek all around the universe, making stuff on the way, to outfit a ship. By performing BP runs indiscrimately you often place commods in places/take them away from places in a manner that will negatively affect the production of useful equipment. What DE are doing is excellent for the widespread availability of equipment for all. What you wish to do is good for you. Who do you think the majority of people are going to side with? Unfortunately, in an MMO if you play in a 100% self centred manner and don't care about screwing other people, it may get you in trouble.

3. People will (and have) thank them for limiting other people's play options, because in the end it is for the greater good. I'm sure if they could they'd find a way that didn't interfere with what you want to do, because they're really good guys. unfortunately, there isn't.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
1. It's an MMO. By indiscriminately screwing the economy, you negatively affect their gameplay because they have no equip. They're not the only ones limiting play options.

2. By 'stimulating the economy', people usually mean making equipment available. Possibly a misuse of the phrase, but meh. Much fewer people care about the ease of making their first trillion than they do about not having to trek all around the universe, making stuff on the way, to outfit a ship. By performing BP runs indiscrimately you often place commods in places/take them away from places in a manner that will negatively affect the production of useful equipment. What DE are doing is excellent for the widespread availability of equipment for all. What you wish to do is good for you. Who do you think the majority of people are going to side with? Unfortunately, in an MMO if you play in a 100% self centred manner and don't care about screwing other people, it may get you in trouble.

3. People will (and have) thank them for limiting other people's play options, because in the end it is for the greater good. I'm sure if they could they'd find a way that didn't interfere with what you want to do, because they're really good guys. unfortunately, there isn't.


I can agree with most of this. Folks want equipment so they can PvP, completely understandable.

However, anyone who dosn't have 500 million or more is in pretty deep doo doo because right now, trying to micromange the economy is simply depleting everyone's wallets and it's not a matter of if, but when the money well will run out. I'm not sure what people are going to do then. I have a feeling DE's Leniant policies will become more and more tightened as time goes on.

Now ultimately, the reason why I'm so teed off is mainly because of the cartels now I'm accountable to about 3 people, that I know of. I get the fun of being told what I can and can't do in RL at my job. So if I want to do that in a game. I'll just go get another job and then I can be miserable in two places, but atleast get paid twice.

Atleast in EVE Online I have some freedom to do what I want to do. I know, this makes me not a "Team player" or whatever but frankly I don't care. I'll leave and let someone else replace me who will tow the company line and work for you guys. That's what's best for everyone anyways right? right.
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh* note to self: don't read forum while drunk from partayehing at afterhours pubs.

hic
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't a 'you' situation, since I've never flown for DE :).

The money thing is a shame, but equally there's little reason not to talk to them and find out what you can haul about for cash. Unfortunately, in pretty much every MMOG you will have someone telling you what to do. It's a reality of being able to interfere with someone else's gaming experience (also, IMHO, one of the most interesting things about the MM concept). Complete freedom is something you only really find (and I hate to repeat the mantra...) in single player games, or games with little-no interaction.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
It's a reality of being able to interfere with someone else's gaming experience (also, IMHO, one of the most interesting things about the MM concept). Complete freedom is something you only really find (and I hate to repeat the mantra...) in single player games, or games with little-no interaction.


Incorrect!

JG is the only MMO I've ever played where this has happened without consequence.

In EVE, sure the alliances say "You can't go into 0.0" but my brother ignores them and goes anyways. Then he gets to gank their ships and have a good laugh. People with the will can make an impact on these alliances. With JG's small townyness, everyone needs to tow the company line or get out. See in a game like EVE, there's two way interaction. In JG there's one way interaction. I think the only people who don't tow the company line and get away with it are the pirates and that's just because Filzey is a god. Although he too is digging his own grave, because the money well is going to run out sooner or later. Once it does the equpment will run out as well.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a (slight) misrepresentation of the case. In EVE, your brother requires a certain number of people to agree with what he wants to do to help him make an impact on the alliances. The same is the case in JG, although of course the scale is much smaller. Of course, if nobody agrees with what you want to do, nobody will help you. Perhaps it's harder to accomplish in JG, but it's perfectly possible. The skill based nature of the game has another impact, I guess.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
That's a (slight) misrepresentation of the case. In EVE, your brother requires a certain number of people to agree with what he wants to do to help him make an impact on the alliances. The same is the case in JG, although of course the scale is much smaller. Of course, if nobody agrees with what you want to do, nobody will help you. Perhaps it's harder to accomplish in JG, but it's perfectly possible. The skill based nature of the game has another impact, I guess.


Somewhat incorrect!

My brother is actually lone wolfing a lot of the time. However he is still able to
make a significant impact so long as he picks and chooses his battles.

In EVE if you don't believe in one companies line, then there is always another company, their diametric opposites, which you can find an identity with. I consider that very dynamic.

In JG the population is only big enough that everyone just tows one company line. Maybe if the population were doubled, there would atleast be two options. However this small townish behavour that everyone exibits removes choices of alternatives since then it is essentially the dissenter vs the world. In that respect JG is a very stagnant game. "Whoo, I can log on and haul for the cartel again." Something about that is rather lackluster because everyone will always tow the same line and nothing will ever change. Seems fairly boring to me to log on, get my orders from the cartel boss and then do the hauling. Why don't I just get a second RL job, it'd be the same thing only I can get paid for it.

If you're going to punish people for having different opinions then the consequence is that they'll leave. Which is good because really JG dosn't need them anyways. JG dosn't need people like me who don't tow the company line, so it's better I leave and someone who can replaces me right? You'll be glad to have them, I'm sure. What I don't understand is why not just merge everything into one squad and centralize it some more, I think that would be a good idea and someone should propose it.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you'd prefer the other alternative, where you get to do what you want, and everyone who wants equipment leaves, right? ;) The thread of bitterness running through your posts does make it appear that you blame the players rather than the game. Of course, your statement on what you would be able to do is rather overblown, as well. It's not like all you can do is what the cartel tells you, rather that you can't do what the cartel tells you not to do. It's a not-so-subtle difference.

Youy've got a problem with people stopping you doing exactly what you want to do when what you want to do screws them. Fine. Bottom line is, this isn't 'small townish' behaviour. It's simply a fact of everyone disagreeing with the dissenter, because said dissenter is attempting to screw everyone except himself. The thing about JG is that it isn't like EVE - interrupt production on one station, and it hurts _everyone_. In EVE it just hurts whatever few people use that production centre. So, in the end, everyone is going to be against you. In EVE, many production centres, some of which people may _want_ to cripple. So, yeah, you're more likely to have someone with you. This isn't the JG community's fault, though.

DE aren't punishing you for having a difference in opinion. They're stopping you from screwing them over. It's really, genuinely that simple. Of course, the skill based nature of the game matters to an extent too. Certainly as a lone dissenter I could do a lot of damage, but I recognise that it's much harder for an inexperienced pvper.
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Ambrosius
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a bunch of whiners. JG is a blast right now. GM_K's current storyline involved hauling and fighting to make significant advances in the corp wars.

But WTF, if your idea of fun is matsturbating in a corner, knock yourself out.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the masturbation is pretty hot. I'm good.

I'd love to play, but I have neither the time nor the ability to stay awake until 5am any more ;)
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Bhurak
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambrosius wrote:
What a bunch of whiners. JG is a blast right now. GM_K's current storyline involved hauling and fighting to make significant advances in the corp wars.

But WTF, if your idea of fun is matsturbating in a corner, knock yourself out.


You'll have to explain the masturbation analogy for me ambro.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
And you'd prefer the other alternative, where you get to do what you want, and everyone who wants equipment leaves, right? ;) The thread of bitterness running through your posts does make it appear that you blame the players rather than the game. Of course, your statement on what you would be able to do is rather overblown, as well. It's not like all you can do is what the cartel tells you, rather that you can't do what the cartel tells you not to do. It's a not-so-subtle difference.

Youy've got a problem with people stopping you doing exactly what you want to do when what you want to do screws them. Fine. Bottom line is, this isn't 'small townish' behaviour. It's simply a fact of everyone disagreeing with the dissenter, because said dissenter is attempting to screw everyone except himself. The thing about JG is that it isn't like EVE - interrupt production on one station, and it hurts _everyone_. In EVE it just hurts whatever few people use that production centre. So, in the end, everyone is going to be against you. In EVE, many production centres, some of which people may _want_ to cripple. So, yeah, you're more likely to have someone with you. This isn't the JG community's fault, though.

DE aren't punishing you for having a difference in opinion. They're stopping you from screwing them over. It's really, genuinely that simple. Of course, the skill based nature of the game matters to an extent too. Certainly as a lone dissenter I could do a lot of damage, but I recognise that it's much harder for an inexperienced pvper.


Now I'll grant I have a negitive thread in my posts. Mainly because at first I didn't understand and I thought DE was powermongering as opposed to trade carteling (And being reasonable about it, but it's still a trade cartel)

I did state in my posts that "Hey, I understand you gotta do what you gotta do, I don't approve of it so I simply won't work for you." Now in EVE, production is a bit different and there is just far far too many types and brands of equipment that it's impossible to foil an entire production center. In JG it's so small that taking control of a production center is reletively easy. Not going to blame DE for that.

That is the games fault but really it's going to happen anyways. I'm fairly sure the money well is going to run out sooner or later and then you're going to be in some real trouble.... or atleast in trouble in miners, hehe.

With the flight sim nature, which I like in some aspects but I can't really do anything in terms of PvP. I'm not good at twich as other folks so I chose to go back to a game that could suit my needs. Yes it's point and click but there's more tactics and stratagy involved in some ways. (Not going to say EVE is better then JG, that's a different topic. I'm just addressing your last point)

As for everyone being against me? I never wanted to do BPR's at all actually, I wanted to do trade missions. Yes, they would be against me and that's something I'd have to live with. Heaven forbid I give them the ability to make their own money. The thing is that that when the money well runs out people are going to HAVE to make money somehow and I'm talking about serious money, not confulx missions. The only one who wins then is McPlowed. I hear you can loanshark off of him... but his interest rates may be a bit steep =P.

Nope, that's all I got, I hope that clarifies my position a bit.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambrosius wrote:

But WTF, if your idea of fun is matsturbating in a corner, knock yourself out.


You better not promise me some hot masterbation action and then not deliever! I already got cheated out of that once already.
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Ambrosius
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhurak wrote:
You'll have to explain the masturbation analogy for me ambro.


Well . . . ummm . . . it's an analog of a "mutli-player game" that one plays by oneself, bypassing the normal interactive approach to the activity.

How's that?
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"RP masturbation" is basically making a storyline and then going OOC everytime someone tries to poke holes in your story, IC-like.

I've seen that bullshit ever since JG-beta6. The worst examples were that "prince of Hyperial" and some other craptastic RPers.

I'll tell you one thing, putting a GM-stamp-of-approval on an RP event generates exactly ZERO respect or any sign of intelligence.
    furthermore, attaching a "masturbation" counter-attack using the GM-tag as your point of reference only shows 'fanboi' attitudes and a complete ignorance of what "community" means - it's as if the person using such a train of logic replaces non-consensual RP with "omg official sponsorship = genuine spontaneity and community building" ...when in fact you've just got bandwagoneering at it's most pathetic
Baadf00d wrote:
The transition between IC and OOC seems to flip cause and effect. OOC its "I have this level, therefore I can cast X spells". IC its "I can cast X spells in a day, therefore in comparison to my peers I have Y level".

TRANSLATION: you've got to put yourself into the shoes of your faction. Me, i'd wonder (a) is that "Official" going to further my faction's role in the world of TRI, or is this yet another powerplay by some bit-player who's only going to sour our relationship with TRI or it's subdivisions?

(b) see a

(c) see a



see? it's that FUCKING simple. 99% of the BS i've seen has been reinventing the "politics" wheel and, frankly my dear, i don't give a damn

beer
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Razage
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, to be fair it was an OOC debate in the first place.

I started it off OOC on the JG forums themselves.

I'm going to say right now that I'm all for non-consenual PvP and RP. It's what makes games fun. What's annoying in JG is that EVERYONE tows the same line. The only people who do it marginally differently are the pirates.

Now if there were some other groups, maybe some Free spacers or Free market support type folks, then maybe there would be something going on. However considering that everyone follows the DE company line (The other factions run their own cartels too, don't forget, just to a lesser extent then DE.) then it makes for a very boring and stale game.

So then if someone speaks up against the company line, the thought police come out in force. After defropping their arguments I get called some guy named DP Coyote or something like that? Now that's what really pissed me off. I try to do some politics stuff, but after the air runs out of their argument, they start calling me OOC insults. I mean that's pretty damn low. I don't have any use for that. Therefore I really don't have any use for a community that will only tow one line.

What ever happened to diversity in MMORPGS? In EVE I thought RP was pretty stale but JG made me appriciate the staleness that is in EVE RP. Lets do a comparision ok:

In JG there are 3 factions, but all three essentially do the same thing and don't really fight eachother unless the GM's say otherwise. There's also no reason to fight each other. Everyone's busy running their commodity cartels.

In EVE, there are 4 factions, all four do different things and all four have different goals. The Minmat's and the Amarr have plenty of reason to fight, the Caldari have gotten involved in that in the past and right now there's two corps, Caldari and Gallente that are looking to start some conflict. Now in addition to that, there's also numerous fractions of groups that have their own agenda's. Like the outlaw alliances and various rouge groups that seek to disrupt the outlaw alliances and even the ones in policed space. Now origionally I thought that RP in EVE was pretty stale because it never changed, however after playing some other games, I see I should have been glad that splinter groups and such existed in the first place.

Conclusion: In JG you can only do two things: Tow the company line or be a pirate. In EVE, there's a group for just about any viewpoint.

I'm not so much concerned with the cartels as opposed to the the fact that everyone supports them. I just don't see any fun in that. So I left becuase the thought police, in addition to being incompetent in trying to defeat my arguments, also felt they had to resort to OOC attacks.
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Ambrosius
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JG RP gets stale because there's not enough of a player-base, not because of game dynamics.

There is much more to do than party line versus non-party line. in JG. The whole Geneticorp RP engineered by Fence was without GM "approval" -- in fact it appeared there was intentional GM undermining at a few junctures.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bah, this is the problem with consensual RP, it makes everyone think they have to ask before doing something and get approval. Why not just do stuff anyways without approval from the GM's? Just because something is done without GM approval dosn't mean it sucks, it means the GM's are too busy chewing their cuds to do anything but collect a paycheque, fuck 'em.

JG still has a big enough player base that people could take different viewpoints, however it likly won't happen because it's taboo in the JG community to go against the company line so people won't. If there's no dynamic game play that's because the player base hasn't tried to make any. In EVE most of the dynamics is created by players then supported by GM's afterwords. Luckily no one will have to awknowedge this point because consential RP also gives a copout, "Ohhh, we can't because the GM's/community won't let us." Fuck the GM's!

Seriously, here, let me put it in big bold letters:
Fuck the GM's!

If you want dynamic content, then go out and create it, don't blame the GM's for not creating it. You have a squad so you have the resources at your disposel to create dynamic content and the people who can help you do it. Stop asking for approval and get out there and make it happen!
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so...what did the "official" storyline help your faction with? i'm assuming fuck all.

as for the "not enough playerbase" excuse. hahaha... oh, COME ON! That holds exactly zero mass, especially after seeing what passes for official storylines in Eve-online with 10,000 players online at the same time, day in day out.
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Ambrosius
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eve ... PLEASE. Eve has the depth of a baby pool.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ambrosius wrote:
Eve ... PLEASE. Eve has the depth of a baby pool.


Now here is where you would present facts and arguments to present your case.
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Heretic
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Joined: 09 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Razage wrote:
Ambrosius wrote:
Heretic wrote:
Ambrosius wrote:
JG RP gets stale because there's not enough of a player-base, not because of game dynamics.

There is much more to do than party line versus non-party line. in JG. The whole Geneticorp RP engineered by Fence was without GM "approval" -- in fact it appeared there was intentional GM undermining at a few junctures.
so...what did the "official" storyline help your faction with? i'm assuming fuck all.

as for the "not enough playerbase" excuse. hahaha... oh, COME ON! That holds exactly zero mass, especially after seeing what passes for official storylines in Eve-online with 10,000 players online at the same time, day in day out.
Eve ... PLEASE. Eve has the depth of a baby pool.
Now here is where you would present facts and arguments to present your case.


fuck it. okay, look, i'm going to make this rather simple. Ambro's little make-believe world of "intrigue" has about as much "story" as a nursery rhyme, and about as much "arc" as quasi-moto trying for the NBA. They'll yap on about how great the RP potential JG has until the cows come home. Christ, you know, i play MMOGs because of the community and the persistent nature of the concept - i don't play for the weekend's next "OMFG" episodic load of crap i could probably get more depth out of by reading this month's playmate bio, ffs.

btw, in case you're unclear on the concept, i wasn't complimenting eve's storyline quality either in my previous post.
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Razage
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an RPer, so I was.
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm rather sad about the fact JumpGate developer(s) still have yet to produce the fabled POS factory modx...it's ironic that Eve-online has yet to deliver both research labs and factory slots in it's version of the POS.
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