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A foreshadowing of things to come (POS)

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:35 pm    Post subject: A foreshadowing of things to come (POS) Reply with quote

RazorX i read your flame of Isorg. (i'm the one who called him a "tool") hehehe...gods what a bunch of tarts, shame on you for provoking someone who was merely adding some *IC* spice (and not bragging about his secret squad proggie. noooooo, he wasn't doing that.)

insane HELP

http://forums.jossh.com/showthread.php?&threadid=13810

RazorX wrote:
Wait, so all the pilots who hoarded towloads of flashfires (including myself) during the flashfire shortage were justified in doing so, but these gentlemen are getting grilled for [stripping displacers since the one factory that makes them was destroyed in an RP event almost 3 weeks ago]? The hypocriscy meter is off the scale.

Are the people who are so pissed off about this mad because they don't have a displacer, or mad because they didn't have the initiative to think of it first?

It's foreshadowing because POS will make station stripping stupidly easy if you want to hoard stuff instead of just shift/destroy things. (ie. save you tonnes of cash and time)
    we've known this for months. What the strippers did for displacers doesn't even hint at the level of mass stripping we'll see come POS. The usage of /Scan will be dangerous because the strippers will of course use civilian tags and won't get bounties for getting caught with gear. (why not? because ND would screw things up and allow griefers to run amok, "RPing to suit civripping")
Ambrosius wrote:
Ultimately, stripping is simply taking commodities or equipment with the primary purpose of depriving others. For instance, Amananth was recently stripped of the commods it needs to produce Instigators. Clearly, this was not done for commercial gain -- it was done to stop production of Instigators. The only really bad thing about stripping -- equip or commods -- is that it is done behind civ tags. If there was a way to force strippers into HG tags, then (IMO) eco-war woulg be a very viable and interesting part of the game.

I'm sure I've oversimplified. The point was that the thing that makes stripping uber-lame is that you really can't fight back effectively.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:00 am; edited 4 times in total
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RazorX
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Location: Muffy went off on somebody and all i got was this lousy T-Shirt

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some days I just gotta poke people with a stick, what can I say? 8P

And he is a tool. Honestly, I don't give a shit one way or the other about the Displacers, it's the way FRG tries to act like the Lead Detective at a press conference, "We know who took the little girl, and we are asking them to return her and turn themselves in before things get out of hand."

Too bad I can't afford another one-pilot war against FRG...

As far as *IC* spice goes, these are the same guys who tried to *IC* shut down Haven production, and I didn't feel like busting them on that with an *IC* reply.

I seriously can't wait for Ep2, at least then I can go steal cargo to give me something to do besides get into Forum Wars that are better left unfought.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

offtopic
OMG J00 R FOWND OWT!

ISORG = BABY SPICE wannabe

OMG OMG OMG =FRG= SPICE GIRL WANNABES!

[url=SpiceGrrls.jpg][/url]
InterOrka wrote:
Perhaps your reaction will go good with some sort of XDresser/Transvestite Barbie. Oops..sorry, I promised not to tell about your favourite piece of blow up bed room equipment...oops I did it again!

I thought stripping displacers since the factory to construct them is down was 1337 idea, and i'll bet Isorg was just jealous his mighty morphin power brain couldn't think that up first. lol


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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RazorX wrote:
Isorg would just yell from the other room that he knew of a certain little girl who took 2 blue fish when she was only supposed to take red fish, and he had contacted the little girl's squad leader, and would give her 48 hours to return the 2 blue fish to the pond or he would go public with the info. But ya, the post makes sense otherwise.
EyeSore-G wrote:
razor you have a reason to attack me personally on the forums, or you just suffering from diarrhea of the mouth. either way Stfu
Patroklos wrote:
Would the fact that you are a whiny little b!tch serve as justification enough?
EyeSore-G wrote:
*sorry but i can't let me self fall down to your lvl*
RazorX wrote:
Seems like I got my own little fish to take the bait.


rofl lmao 8} 8] 8o right, moving this from flame war to comic relief...no wait. off to News forum


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Doomsday wrote:
I can't believe the number of you that are pissed about some program that crunches publicly available data, and not pissed about hoarders that are trying to profit from the misfortune of everyone else.

The destruction of the Displacer CP was an IC, RP event. Supposedly ( I can't speak for them) the GM's created this situation to cause the sort of chaos that we are seeing now. This is what happens in a war. In case some of you have forgotten, we are at war with the Conflux.

Allegedly, members of ESM swiped all of the displacers from Sol, Quant, and Oct space. They've robbed even pilots in their own faction of the ability to hunt for artifacts. In theory, they've done this to profit. However, I've seen no signs that they are ready to open shop and start selling their supplies. In fact, I have seen a threat that they will destroy them. This can only be seen as a hostile and traitorous action.

The displacers were taken. This is a fact. It should not come as a suprise to any of you that Solrain would be most effected by this. Solrain is the furthest from Amananth, and has recently been subject to campaigns to deprive them of other equipment. With the recent conflux blockades of Amananth by the conflux, is it any suprise that Solrain would stock up on equipment that could rapidly become rare? And, is it any more of a suprise that they should react with hostility to someone that came and took equipment they didn't stock and hoarded it?

No, instead of being angry about that, many of you are angry about the fact that someone used publicly provided data and a computer program to figure out who had harmed them. The data on JOSSH is part of the game.

Let me repeat that.... THE DATA ON JOSSH IS PART OF THE GAME

What a cool game JG is that it pushes beyond the bound of Jumpgate.exe. It extends into our lives. This forum is part of that. How many of you are in game while you're on the forum? How many political alliances have been formed using forum PM's. For that matter, how many have used TeamSpeak, IRC or Email to perform IC actions? Why don't you insist that all those activities take place in game, using Jumpgate.exe only?

Here's another thing. The tracker that FRG has created is allowed. It's been no great secret that a program like this exists, and ND is fully aware of it. They have taken no action to remove the data, they have taken no action ask FRG to stop using it. In the past if they thought there was an abuse going on with JOSSH data (Innominate's 2nd account tracker) they did take action.

There's only one major flaw in that line of reasoning, and that's the fact that stripping IS also part of this game. (his spin is that for some reason =ESM= stripping stations is not a heinous *IC* act, but a griefing *OOC* act that was "out of character" for =ESM=)
    As though squad public policy statements ever were the truth. how many of us have seen total lies before? i have. 1984 comes to mind, eh? Personally, i think the lot of them should grow the hell up, act *IC* and call ESM for what they are (station strippers hurting TRI and helping the conflux sow discord and dissent)
The shitty thing is that TRI should have a FM (or RP events to sidestep ND's laziness) to repair the damage, but noooooo, that would be like James Bond being shot out of hand in the first 15 minutes of a 007 movie. (or would the proper analogy be refusing to sell popcorn at the theatre?)

Ah well, there is some good to all this but i see it being wasted by TG in not announcing plans to begin repairs to the Displacer factory...I also see it being wasted in the lack of RP player storylines that point to TRI as somehow wanting to destroy the black market economy. (for what motivation i don't know)

I really wish people would contribute to the solution instead of merely grabbing the popcorn.
Kenndog wrote:
Isorg is playing his RP well, and there's nothing wrong with him ratting out players who strip Sol space.

I would rather that he didn't have these tools, but until ND alters pilots stats availability, there's nothing we can do about it.

We have to hope that FRG handles this fairly, and so far they have (I'm only talking about this incident). They contacted the offending party privately, I guess to give them a chance to explain. We can hope that if the situation was different, and the offending party provided some RP to back them up, or offered to pay off FRG, they would have played along (or at least RPed a rejection).

Now the part that I have a problem with is that the same tool can be abused (as RazorX has pointed out).

FRG does not HAVE to use their tool for the good of the server, indeed they are the first to admit that they are concerned about Solrain first and foremost.

The main reason players seem to be comfortable with FRG's tool is not because they think FRG is RPing it well, but because they think it is protecting the interests of the average player. They think that missing Displacers is a OOC exploit and that hurts the players at large. I have to disagree here. Yes, that means that some artifact hunters are S.O.L., but things don't have to be fair all the time for the game to be fun. Shortages/Blockades/Etc lead to interaction. Interaction is what separates JG from single player space games.

It took me a LONG time to understand that. And I probably said some nasty things to FRG in the past because I didn't understand it yet (I'm thinking of the Haven shortage). But after I cooled down I realized that tracking down the cause of the Haven shortage, and running tests, and talking to pilots about it, and even the heated debates ..... were fun.

I was involved. I was interested. There was a challenge to be met. It pissed me off, but that motivated me to fight. The problem was that sometimes I wanted to play JG MY way, and not be affected by what other players were doing. So I took a break. I played some I-War2 and eventually it hit me, that I was missing the point. I was getting mad over the exact reason I played an ONLINE game. Someones actions were affecting me, and I acted like a little kid who didn't get his way.

Personally, I hate the tracking tool that FRG has. But I have to admit, that we have a very similar tool. We just use it differently. I'm sure that all trucking squads have an application like this. Ours started out as just a tool to track station inventories. Then we added support for tracking bountied pilots and known pirates. From there it is a small step to track individual players. It's just too easy to do, and there's too many ways that it can hurt players (I'm imagining a return trip from Aman w/ Instigators and a well informed pirate just podding me since he knows I'm uninsured).

Maybe if RazorX does build his tool, and he does employ it to the fullest of its ability, ND may see that the data that JOSSH provide goes too far.

hm I don't like the asskissing about FRG's *OOC* tool. you know, if i was *IC* i'd question the legality of hacking TRI's revenue database. (see here for *IC*/*OOC* conflict)

At least someone's thinking constructively, although a bit too giddy about player run events. Which is probably appropriate cynicism considering the complete lack of opportunism on the part of ThemisGroup to expect/encourage/react in an *IC* way to this division.
    this is a huge foreshadow of things to come, but TG is clueless. Proof? We see zero feedback/recognition/prioritizing by TG that the byproduct of their event is anything but, "oh, that was a cool idea. high 5!" and thinking up a new, completely unrelated, episode for StarTrek...ooops, i meant JumpGate! Just think of the many ways TRI could react, how about...

  • that new "TRI court judge circuit" storyline? How about trying ESM for treason? (adding in solrain *IC* cries that they were the major victim of the stripping; adding in the *IC* counterpoint that ESM were merely out for profit)
  • Reacting to pilot accusations that TRI's new government are being manipulated by ConfluxAgents (using the lack of FM's for 6 months as backstory)
  • Reacting to pilot accusations that the new Corporate investment strategy would profit from damaging the one pilot "black market" in existence (or many other reasons)
  • WHY ISN'T =FRG= BEING TAKEN UP BY THE TRI CIRCUIT COURT FOR ESPIONAGE CHARGES AS WELL AS =ESM= FOR TREASON?!
  • shall i go on?
probably TG will consider it too touchy an *OOC* subject and ignore the potential for immersion since they are incompetent Community Service managers who don't know the community mindset in order to react appropriately to a game they hardly know the realpolitik of. (ie. knowing who the trolls are; ie. knowing who's a reliable source of decent *OOC*/*IC* info that isn't corrupted by fanboi syndrome) reference


EyeSore-G (quoting the 'OPDB' proggie) wrote:
=======103.3.2.4:35. 32
Quantar Core lost 286 Displacer Value = 4205630
---> 0.952,InterOrka/,-4003994
=======103.3.2.4:59. 40
Quantar Depot lost 40 Displacer Value = 594840
---> 0.942,InterOrka/,-560159
=======103.3.2.4:59. 40
Solrain Depot lost 500 Displacer Value = 7114500
---> 0.984,hsalf1/-=ESM=-,-7000013
=======103.3.2.6:48. 15
Solrain Depot lost 642 Displacer Value = 9193440
-1/2-> 0.489,MEGADEATH/-=ESM=-,-4493967
=======103.3.2.7:0. 19
The Cornea lost 193 Displacer Value = 2847715
-1/2-> 0.477,hsalf1/-=ESM=-,-1358082
-1/2-> 0.472,MEGADEATH/-=ESM=-,-1344003

I must say, i believe =FRG= isn't the only squad to have this tool. I believe they weren't the ones to develop it. (if they were, then kudos, but i doubt they are the only ones with a programmer onboard - just the loudest and most obnoxious ones)
    EyeSore-G wrote:
    No, we will never release our tools for public use, in the wrong hands they could be used to cause harm, and we will never allow that to happen.

    see, the thing is =FRG= don't know how to roleplay effectively. They've shot themselves in the foot trying to grab centerstage of someone else's player event.

  • If =FRG= did this *IC* they'd realize they'd be just as guilty in TRI's eyes for hacking TRI revenue database as =ESM= is for high treason
  • If =FRG= realized for one second that their solrain faction praises "Ferengi"-like practices, then this sort of thing should have been "admired" instead of "condemned"
  • taking that further =FRG= should have treated this as "omg! =ESM= are treasonous for destroying displacers!"
  • Themis Group should contact =ESM= *OOC* and ensure that they haven't destroyed the evidence before having TRI say anything *IC*...for promoting station stripping (ala. Aslan) by giving it any press time would condone the act of such practices and make any argument for sanity come EP2 a joke

    =FRG=, by NOT doing so and whining about something any solrain would be proud of, they broke *IC**/*OOC* boundaries. It would be doubly a shame if ThemisGroup decided to punish =ESM= alone for treason and ignore the facts listed above...it would triply be a shame if TG decided to ignore this opportunity and thus emphasize the disconnect between official storyline and community realpolitik
I believe =ESM= still has these items (for profit, or otherwise) This validates the "roleplay" because they're weighed down by these items and are making an effort, whereas =FRG= isn't doing anything of the sort and playing "armchair moderator" in some sort of twisted joke exploiting an *OOC* tool in an *OOC* fashion and claiming it's *IC* because somehow their pilots can get away with this sort of system hack?


Crossreference (*IC* versus *OOC*; repeat link)

P.S. I'm starting to suspect Isorg is Innominate


Though if ESM had actually crashed or some such to rid themselves of the baggage then i'd classify this whole event as an *OOC* grief spree like Aslan's "roleplay", regardless of *IC*/*OOC* threats to destroy them (not sure if =FRG='s proggie tracks networth changes)...destruction of the displacers would be stupidity compounded and blacken =ESM='s name as surely as handing a big "WINGAME" button to =FRG= would do. (not all would be lost by the destruction though, it would just ruin ESM's reputation just as FRG have ruined their's multiple times in the past)
    personally, i care not either way. It's TRI who is guilty of the lack of "FMs" and the lack of "RP events" (to get around the lack of former) to repair the factory ASAP...Themis Group is guilty of the lack of any storyline beyond the initial "ooops! factory go boom!" to assuage the anger.
Personally, even if =ESM= decided to have an Aslan reputation (ie. sullied) they did a bold move and exploited an official TEMPORARY situation...they would look less the *OOC* villain if they still have the gear, but i doubt we'd never know their true motivations in any case. Either way, =ESM= and =FRG= have provided what Themis Group could not (ie. realpolitik)

Ventura (the carebear wynar) wrote:
Stripping is lame. I think that is a universal truth. Preventing people from hunting artifacts will simply drive em from the game. Congratulations whomever grabbed the displacers, eliminated a whole class of player in one action. OMG I R BROKE MY NAIL!
Lady_Light wrote:
heh i woulda thought that arty hunters would learned to keep one of each (insight, displacer, rotacol) in sotrage at all times in case this happened. After all, we had this prob when the insight stopped producing a while back. Took em a few days to put some more on the market but since then I've kept my set in storage just in case
Kyller wrote:
I have no problem with what [ESM] are doing, matter of fact I think its a great idea. I remember when people did it with the FF's when Aman was broke, great idea again. What isnt a great idea is to take em off the market and smash em (Not to get flammed too bad, but didnt Frg do that with the BCU's? Dont get me wrong Im not sure, but thats what I remember).
Wild_Cujo wrote:
Also I think Stipping has a lot to do with intent. Was [ESM's] intent to make solrain void of displacers just to make them suffer or was the intent to corner the market.
SkullFace wrote:
We were mostly concerned with the stripping of displacers from Solrain space. We have taken the position that stripping of equipment is wrong. I thought the community agreed that taking equipment in quantity from a station that does not produce it is stripping.

No, that's BS. Stripping (the connotation we use as "bad") = /home buygear launch ooops!petal lather rinse repeat. (any other form of 'Stripping' has a less heinous connotation, and that quoted "agreement" will become so much toilet paper once POS arrive)
GM_Archon (from a thread called, EU vs US) wrote:
What will be interesting to see is what effect the player owned stations have on the US and EU styles of play, and conversely what effect the US and EU styles of play will have on the number and type of POS...
    what does muffy REALLY think? muffy thinks TG is nodding it's collective butt in the air foolishly and thinking, "well, our job is done here. move along" and not even seeing the effects being foreshadowed (yeah, and these are the people ND entrusted to do the official storyline?!)...As for FRG? They probably don't understand their "zero tolerance" stance has many *OOC*/*IC* holes in it, not the least of which is the analogies one could make to "farming" "civripping" "exploits inc."...I blame ND for creating a culture of lazy black&white morality where hypocrisy is the law of the land and exploits are it's sinews. (illegal activity has become the only truly spontaneous activity and it's ignored so much by officials that *OOC* becomes *IC* -- f5:help, etc etc etc)...As for ESM, i don't believe they intended to destroy those displacers since it would be more fun to control a monopoly...or...they possibly might have thought doing so would entice TG into "repairing" the factory, perhaps? (doesn't matter. i don't think this was an Aslan type grief "roleplay" - Aslan had a good idea, it was just his execution was doomed to be horrible from the start since he figured the ends always justify the means)
Nazgul (then) wrote:
Everyone's too focused on winning to have any fun.
Nazgul (now) wrote:
See the boards as a game. Playing with words and semi-intelligent replies (ok.. mine are usually mind nubming.. but thats my strategy)



CONCLUSION
Ever heard of the saying, "The end justifies the means"? I don't believe that at all.
Saint Jerome (c. 342-420) wrote:
The line, often adopted by strong men in controversy, of justifying the means by the end

I say these lunatics confuse "Software coding" with "RP choices"
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Ventura
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:18 pm    Post subject: Put my name in a post and I will come out the woodwork Reply with quote

Here is my Wyner list to save time.

  1. I don't like the FRG tool, as I don't have it (It also provides a little too much info to the operator, and it is being used in a real destabilizing way) -- Give it to Muffy he won't exploit it nearly as much.
  2. Lame to grab something that really gives you no appreciable advantage (eg displacers) -- If you are going to Strip take something good!
  3. If you want to play hardball, go ahead and stake out your spot. Don't post "We don't strip equipment", "We won't attack unless...", or other bull excrement on your squadpage/Website unless you mean it. -- Have some balls, stand up and post your rp and play it.



Only 3,325 posts behind Muffy
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shrug* hey, welcome aboard, Ventura. give the boys some credit, will ya? (ESM i mean) Look, the guys probably came up with it at the spur of the moment, didn't have contact with their squadleader to clear it, did something rash and did it anyways...Then they all banded together, threw caution to the wind and gave the finger to =FRG=

HELL, i admire the sonofabitches for not doing what Aslan did. (i hope to hell they haven't destroyed the displacers or else they've made a tragic error in judgment)
    i'm sure they just bluff about destroying those modx, because they wouldn't affect the game by doing so just their reputations
give me a break! there is NO way in hell that Themis Group was going to bother fixing the damn thing until long after those stocks disappeared...someone was bound to take advantage of the situation. and don't give me that total BS about displacers being "unimportant" because a whole segment of our culture has arisen around a "black market"

As for your condemnation of FRG's tool? what makes you think they've got the lock on the programmers? They're just the loudest clumsiest stupidest bunch of wannabe-roleplayers since The_Tyke barged in on the scene.

hmph. in the end it is not the players who are at fault for merely doing what comes natural to them, warts and all. it lies with the GAMEMASTER. the DUNGEON MASTER who has to be as opportunistic as possible to make the game fun.

when there is sound, do you not turn towards it? when there is silence, do you not ignore it? For how can you pay attention to silence
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, I think the tracking tool if it were placed in more capable(imaginative) hands could make things much more interesting. After all, we are just waiting for anything to happen on either server.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, too bad TG isn't capable or imaginative.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skullface wrote:
Pilot,

Usage of the FRG economic tracking system has been vetted by the TRI Executive Council as a legitimate usage of publically available data on several occasions. FRG has no plans to change our policy on tracker usage in the forseeable future. The tracker is an internally developed system designed to further the interests of FRG, Solrain, and TRI, in that order.


uh huh. So that nix's my "FRG up on espionage charges" RP suggestion and leaves FRG smelling like roses *IC*. Unfortunately for them this turns me from a "Themis Group fucked up" to a "FRG overstepped their bounds" in a very *OOC* way. (I actually don't expect TG to even bother dealing with this issue)
    and the only way to heal that mistake is by either ignoring it, doing a masterful job BTW, or telling FRG that they don't speak for TRI nor TG
Too bad GM_Moll's RP FAQ is ambiguous about "speaking [under authority] for RPC [entities]" (ie. it has no LITERAL mention of those qualifiers and is probably what FRG is taking advantage of)...It is my suspicion that TG knows all too well it can't enforce this rule or is deliberately not bothering dealing with this sort of thing because it's a waste of time for them.
    BTW, there's another corroborating point that FRG obviously avoided getting in touch with GM_Moll about, and thats...
GM_Moll wrote:
Heroes are made through action, not through writing. A huge temptation for writing plots and "ideas to get involved" is by writing a hero or center role for the person or squad who came up with the idea. Our goal of storyline and events is to get as many people involved as possible, and this must be kept in mind at all times. That may not be your goal, and that's OK. It just makes it hard to lend any official support towards. -- This is also the single most reason many ideas are turned down.

Events designed to humiliate other pilots violate our mission statement of increasing morale. Events clearly designed to harm another pilot or squad will not be sponsored by RMD, for example. While a very subjective criteria, RMD realizes as a department of TRI, approval of event assistance indicates direct endorsement of the activity. Such endorsement cannot be given lightly.
    note how you CAN humiliate other pilots, just don't expect acknowledgement by TG officials in an *IC sense...and noting their silence during this whole "Displacer Fiasco" i'd say they don't in an *OOC* sense either.
TG are probably busy doing other things... popcorn

CONCLUSION
I do believe that both MightyGames, ThemisGroup and numerous other 'CommunityServices' will allow the most severe ToS violating grief behavior not only ingame but on the forums because they believe "RP" and "Griefing" is mutual incompatible to the nth degree, and they'll hum and haw till the cows come home, the chicken to roost, and the whole fucking Arc docks. (they're even guilty of exploiting this same loophole themselves)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am watching
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i liked the "arc docks" line!
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