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Ice Data / POS data

 
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:17 am    Post subject: Ice Data / POS data Reply with quote

Adipocere wrote:
They're all more or less like this as far as I can tell:

Blue ice:
100 Heavy Water
50 Liquid Ozone
1 Strontium Clathrates
250 Oxygen Isotopes

But I was thinking about this today. With a large barge and Ice Harvesting 5, you're mining 24 pieces of ice an hour (8 cycles, 3 pieces per cycle, assume someone else is hauling and rats are handled).

I can pull a million isk an hour out of just about any ore as is without a barge, so what's blue ice worth for the effort? 1000000/24 = 41667 isk per piece. I'd call that a gross minimum too, since you'd have to running the most optimized op to hit that. If you're mining solo with a medium barge and bookmarking back to a base every cycle, you're most likely mining something like 10-12 pieces of ice per hour. That puts you in the neighborhood of 100K isk per piece. At least in terms of opportunity lost mining easier things.

What do you guys think a piece of ice is really worth?
Celeste Fegi wrote:
Well, right now, the price for heavy water is around 2500-3200, and strontium clathrates is at 90k. Admittedly, we have low supply and high demand right now, so those will go down.

But that means, if I'm reading you right, that the processed value for one block of blue ice is in excess of 340k. So the price can drop by *quite* a bit from current before ice mining stops being very lucrative.
Hakera wrote:
http://www.eve-i.com/home/dumbledore/iceore.xls


Last edited by Heretic on Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bhurak
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, look at that, and I've found an ice field :P. Named Bhurak's Ex.


:P
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keva wrote:
Harisdrop wrote:
Once these [url="http://www.eve-i.com/home/crowley/page/page_objectexplorer.php?id=815"]Auxillary power arrays come in game[/url] we will see POS in a different light. When you can have multiple reactions running . Then everything we know now will be a memory and POS will rule the economy!


These won't help. Running a bunch of these will simply require more ice. more ice = more cost for the pos. so now you can run 2 reactors instead of 1 reactor..... but you are using double the cpu/power so you have doubled your dialy cost. Since POS are losing money you now are able to lose money at twice the normal rate.

I would love to buy ice and pay enough that ice miners could at least make equal money than scordite. The simple truth is that ccp screwed pos up in some many ways its not funny. There are 3 MASSIVE problems with POS. Until they are resolved ice miners will never make any isk.

First a POS can produce 4800 processed materials / day. It doesn't matter if you got the best moon mins or the worst you still produce 4800 processed material / day. Not any less not any more.

ICompare that to mining veld and mining ark. If regular mining was like moon mining then Veld woudl give trit 100 trit /m3 and Ark would give 100 mega /m3. See the problem? Your cheap mineral is no more plentiful than your most expensive mineral. T

Second massive problem with POS is cost. Even at current ice prices (which are too low IMHO) it cost about 9 million / day to run a POS. In that day you produce 4800 processed materials. That means your cost / unit of processed material is 1,800. At those prices it is imposslbe to compete with cheap agent loot.

Third passive problem with POS is the unbalance between simple and advanced reactions. simple reactions spit out 200 units per hour while advanced reactions take in 100. (If you didn't know simple reactions turn moon mins into processed materials. advanced reactions turn processed materials into advanced materials. factories then combine advanced materials to product T2 components). Do you see the problem? Since a POS running simple reactions produces 2x as much as a POS running advanced reactions that means it takes 2 POS running advanced reactions to "use up" all the materials supplied by the basic POS.

So for example sylramic fibers (advanced material used in T2 armor)
POS A: produces 4800 ceramic powder per day
POS B: produces 4800 hexit per day

now you got the 2 processed materials you just need to combine them....
however the input for sylramic fibers is 2400 ceramic 2400 hexite per day so...
you need
POS C: takes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers
POS D: rakes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers

essentially you now need 4 POS instead of 3 to produce this simple T2 material. Remember each POS is costing 9 million / day so a 33% increase in those costs really affects the final product price.

So combine all these problems and POS are very slow at production and the produce massively overpriced T2 comps. Now agent runners sell their "loot" for 1/2 or 1/3 of the BREAK EVEN price of a POS. That combined with the stranglehold on T2 BPO (hence low production runs) means that POS simple can't compete.

Until POS are profitable there will be no real demand for ice. As long as demand is low prices will be low. Get CCP to fix POS and you will fix the ice price problem too. (If my POS could produce twice as much I would be willing to pay 50% more for ice).
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keva wrote:
Harisdrop wrote:
Once these Auxillary power arrays come in game we will see POS in a different light. When you can have multiple reactions running . Then everything we know now will be a memory and POS will rule the economy!


These won't help. Running a bunch of these will simply require more ice. more ice = more cost for the pos. so now you can run 2 reactors instead of 1 reactor..... but you are using double the cpu/power so you have doubled your dialy cost. Since POS are losing money you now are able to lose money at twice the normal rate.

I would love to buy ice and pay enough that ice miners could at least make equal money than scordite. The simple truth is that ccp screwed pos up in some many ways its not funny. There are 3 MASSIVE problems with POS. Until they are resolved ice miners will never make any isk.

First a POS can produce 4800 processed materials / day. It doesn't matter if you got the best moon mins or the worst you still produce 4800 processed material / day. Not any less not any more.

ICompare that to mining veld and mining ark. If regular mining was like moon mining then Veld woudl give trit 100 trit /m3 and Ark would give 100 mega /m3. See the problem? Your cheap mineral is no more plentiful than your most expensive mineral. T

Second massive problem with POS is cost. Even at current ice prices (which are too low IMHO) it cost about 9 million / day to run a POS. In that day you produce 4800 processed materials. That means your cost / unit of processed material is 1,800. At those prices it is imposslbe to compete with cheap agent loot.

Third passive problem with POS is the unbalance between simple and advanced reactions. simple reactions spit out 200 units per hour while advanced reactions take in 100. (If you didn't know simple reactions turn moon mins into processed materials. advanced reactions turn processed materials into advanced materials. factories then combine advanced materials to product T2 components). Do you see the problem? Since a POS running simple reactions produces 2x as much as a POS running advanced reactions that means it takes 2 POS running advanced reactions to "use up" all the materials supplied by the basic POS.

So for example sylramic fibers (advanced material used in T2 armor)
POS A: produces 4800 ceramic powder per day
POS B: produces 4800 hexit per day

now you got the 2 processed materials you just need to combine them....
however the input for sylramic fibers is 2400 ceramic 2400 hexite per day so...
you need
POS C: takes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers
POS D: rakes 2400 C + 2400H and outputs sylramic fibers

essentially you now need 4 POS instead of 3 to produce this simple T2 material. Remember each POS is costing 9 million / day so a 33% increase in those costs really affects the final product price.

So combine all these problems and POS are very slow at production and the produce massively overpriced T2 comps. Now agent runners sell their "loot" for 1/2 or 1/3 of the BREAK EVEN price of a POS. That combined with the stranglehold on T2 BPO (hence low production runs) means that POS simple can't compete.

Until POS are profitable there will be no real demand for ice. As long as demand is low prices will be low. Get CCP to fix POS and you will fix the ice price problem too. (If my POS could produce twice as much I would be willing to pay 50% more for ice).
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tas Devil wrote:
1 CT uses 500 isotopes /hr that's 12000 a day....

that's 40 units of empire ice (assuming you have at least one fully trained refiner in your corp)

1 large mining barge mines 3 units of ice every 8 minutes (again assuming your ice miners have ice harvesting level 4 but if they trained for large barge ice harvesting is a joke in comparaison)... that means 22,5 units per hour or technically 6 units in 16 minutes

assuming your 10 miners in large barge...16 minutes of empire ice mining yields enough isotopes for 36 hrs... more realistically for a small corp...

you need 2 man/hours of large barge ice mining per day to fuel a POS (considering isotopes only)

Now the reality if you knew anything about POS fuel is that isotopes is actually not the most demanding fuel.... for most corps mining in empire...the hard to get fuel is Liquid Ozone due to its rarety in empire ice... and the fact many have deployed caldari CT's which have limited PG which gets used up quite easy...

It would be wise if armchair POS managers that have never actually done the thing didn't post on here with inaccurate views...[roll]
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MuffyBot™
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moon Mineral Rarity Study

voidvim wrote:
ice->raw material->processed material->advanced material->construction component->tech II item

Moon Material Rarity Study (all isk values are based on current market price at time of writing)
    In the 'pos funtime' channel we are often asked what is a good moon for our pos and how much is a raw material worth. So I have written this forum post to help people decide what is best for your pos.
MOON PROFITABILITY
What determines the worth of a raw material is the construction components it can be used to make. This feeds backwards down the construction chain determining what price people will want to trade their raw or processed material. For a pos to make you profit you must pick the right moon, 12 of the raw materials are not worth harvesting on their own (at current market value).
  • Thus picking a moon with at least one raw material of rarity 32 or 64 is a sound bet.
  • A moon with raw materials of 16 or 8 rarity, and also has 2 or 3 common gases (gray) that can be used with the metal could be profitable if they can be used together either as basic or advanced reactions that goes with the metal you harvest.
ADVANCED REACTIONS
Advanced reactions use between 2,3 or 4 processed materials and thus use between 4 to 8 raw materials. The advanced reactions that use the most raw material produce the least amount of advanced material, for example the advanced reaction makes 'Tungsten Carbide', which uses 4 raw materials and makes 5000 units, while the advanced reaction 'Ferrogel' uses 8 raw materials and makes 300 units.
    As a general rule the rarer the raw material is, the more likely it is used in reactions that make the least advanced material. But the advanced material is used in small amounts in construction components.
ABUNDANCE
The raw materials on moons have Abundance from 1 to 3, each Abundance means you can harvest 100 units of the raw material a hour. Thus a moon with a Abundance 2 of Thulium will produce 200 units a hour when used with advanced moon harvesting array. At the time of writing any abundance over 1 is [redundant] as the Moon Harvesting Array 2 has not been put on the market and Moon Harvesting Array 3s are not a market item at all.

MAX RAW
The maximum amount of raw materials per moon seems to be 4 including abundance. SO a moon could have an abundance of 1 Caesium and 1 Thulium and 2 Silicates could be found or a moon with just Silicates abundance 3.

THE LIST
    common gases (gray) with a rarity of 2
  • Atmospheric Gases uses 1
  • Evaporate Deposits uses 3
  • Hydrocarbons uses 1
  • Silicates uses 3
    isk value 300 to 1000 per unit - These raw materials are ultra common and not worth mining (unless there are also profitable metals.)
But, they are needed in bulk and make a good secondary raw material if you have two that go together. Half the uses for them is to make the other half carbides that go with the rarity 8 metals. Evaporate deposits and Silicates are unique in that they can be both used in two different basic reactions. So they are more flexible then Atmospheric Gases and Hydrocarbons and sell for a little more.
    metals(yellow) - metals rarity of 8
  • Cobalt
  • Scandium
  • Titanium
  • Tungsten
    basic reaction made 1 -- isk value 1000+ per unit
All these metals have only one use, and that is for carbides. Each races construction components needs carbides so you could consider these four metals the building blocks of tech II. all these metals need a rarity 16 metal to make their one basic reaction. It is far better to have a rarity 16 than 8 as the 16 rarity has two other uses besides carbides.Which go so:
  • Cobalt -> Cadmium
  • Scandium -> Vanadium
  • Titanium -> Chromium
  • Tungsten -> Platinum
:: insider note ::Tungsten is the most profitable as Tungsten Carbide sells at 200 per unit, so a batch will sell at 100,000 isk or 24,000,000 isk for 24 hours worth of advanced reaction and is one of the only rare 8 metals worth harvesting.
    metals with rarity of 16
  • Cadmium
  • Vanadium
  • Chromium
  • Platinum
    Basic reactions made 3 -- isk value 2000 to 3000 per unit
All these metals have 3 uses each, and one of the uses are for carbides (see above). These raw materials are used in large quantity's and sell in volume as they are used to make a lot of the different advanced materials and thus easy to trade and sell.
    metals rarity of 32
  • Caesium
  • Hafnium
  • Mercury
  • Technetium
    Basic reactions made 2 (besides Technetium which has 1) -- isk value 2600 to 4000+ per unit
If you can sell these raw materials for 3000+ per unit they can be profitable but your better off trading to make basic reactions with which to boost your profits.
    metals rarity of 64
  • Dysprosium
  • Neodymium
  • Promethium
  • Thulium
    Basic reactions made 2 (besides Thulium which has 1) -- isk value 4000 to 10000+ per unit
These are used to make the advanced reactions that need 6 or 8 raw materials and can easily be sold to sell orders for around 6k, just harvesting one of these should make a pos profitable.

:: insider note ::
Promethium is the current king of raw material, highly in demand, and could be considered the mega of raw materials.

P.S.If some body wants to do the same for processed material it would help the pos community a lot as well.

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Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam Spacey wrote:

Ok , I'm trying to set up a pos... it's doing my head in.

My moon has Atmospheric Gases, Evaporite Deposits and silicates.

I bought a Caldari control Tower... 2 x Harvesters...2 x Silo's ... 1 x Coupling array and a Reactor array.

I cannot for the life of me link this stuff up. I keep going to "Clear links" in process control with the pos stuff offline except for the tower. It doesn't clear it even after pressing apply.

I can't seem to get any of this to work. I placed the silicon Diborite rection into the Recotr array and have the 2 moon material icons in the left of the box and the reaction icon in the right of the reactor array box inprocess control...arrghhh I have no idea what I am doing.

Please help a muppet [:oops:]
Dantes Darkheart wrote:
Okay here's what you do starting with everything unanchored.
  1. Anchor both harvesters
  2. Use "Change Type" to select what each harvester will mine
  3. Anchor both silos
  4. Use "Change Type" to select what the silos will recieve
  5. Online the harvesters and the silos
  6. Once the silos and the harvies say "Online" in black font, click on and drag the mineral icon from the output of the harvey (the icon on the right) to the input of the matching silo (the icon on the left)
  7. Repeat on the other harvey and silo
  8. Click "Apply" on the bottom of the manage window
  9. Ensure both harvies and silo now say "Online - Active" in red font


And, of course, you have the stickied thread on the official forums
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Bhurak
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do we have any info on small Tower consumption? i can't find anything. Oh help us Great MuffyBot™
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MuffyQuest
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dunno what the hell that is. unfortunately, muffy is hampered by partial knowledge. Muffy unclear on concept.

doh
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IluffGoogle
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.eve-i.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=shivapos&Number=185279&Main=184761

i believe your answers are there, in toto

google
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Bhurak
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are seceral orders of magnitude the man. Haven't seen you on since I'm back. What gives?
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fecking CC went kerplunk, so i'll be gone till i get back into the money, which will be soonest. $20/month isn't THAT expensive.

do me a favor and change the "OMNM" channel motd to "ceo will return soon™"
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