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GM_Istvan speaks out on RP

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:10 am    Post subject: GM_Istvan speaks out on RP Reply with quote

GM_Istvan wrote:
Once upon a time, a logical action for trade squads in the game was to try to corner the market in some valuable item, then charge higher prices for distribution to other pilots. Before pilots got into the habit of manipulating the economy directly to manufacture money, this was a completely viable approach.

I am baffled that this issue has to be brought to the attention of the GMs as a crisis. Certainly most pilots like to fly using Flashfires, but if so, then why is it impossible to acquire stocks of the needed commodities and/or a supply from stocks in other POS and attempt to compete with the ISU effort? Is it impossible to fight this effort within the scope of having fun within the game?

I'm not backing ISU, but I'm not willing to instantly vilify them, either. There has got to be room in this game and this community for different play styles or the community will simply drive itself out of existence, which it seems to be doing a very good job of doing.

GM_Istvan wrote:
In running a paper-and-pencil RPG, when a player tries something that doesn't fit well within the existing mechanics or plans, the GM's best response is not to flat-out say "Nope, you can't do that". The best response is to think of something within the context of the game environment that might logically occur, then describe it. The player can then learn form that experience, and the game environment has evolved somewhat.

GMs, whether running a paper-and-pencil game, or moderating an online MMORPG, are human. They cannot be 100% consistent 100% of the time.

There are a large number of possible responses to coordinated player activity that attempts to monopolize or disrupt production and distribution of a specific item. Given the discussions I was informed about, placing a simple PR penalty on the player group that was masterminding the effort was one of the less harsh actions that could have been taken, and was one within the logical context of an environmental response.

Note that a PR penalty such as this can be worked off, or not, as the affected players see fit. During the period when the affected players work off their penalty, production can be re-started by other players if they wish. Similarly, when the subject players have worked off their PR penalty to the point where they can again buy the necessary commodities, it is entirely possible for them to resume their activity. Of course, it would be logical to assume that the same result would happen again, assuming a consistent environment.

*ahem* he then goes off his rocker implying that what is best for the community is what TG does and what TG does is best for the community. ziiiiiiiiing...He might be correct about the existence of wynars, but i'm not going to post rubbish implying there's a direct causal relationship that slights the community....where does he get off avoiding any mention that there are ingame griefers as well as forum griefers? (lovely to see not only bad posting style by an official ND GM, but crass trolling by forum griefers in the replies)
    don't the forum moderators have any form of judgement yet? even a full YEAR after i quit over the dismal failure of sound forum judgment?? (hell, ban me yes, sometimes i deserve a swift kick for going rabid - but jeezuz get rid of the trash too)
I'm guessing, since this is the first post i read today there, that TG must have hit ISU with polrat hits...boy, deja vu

Oh crap, he even starts going off about how f5:help needs moderation and blames the poisonous atmosphere there solely on lack of moderation by GMs (and self-policing by the community)
    oh, plz. i've heard that BS way too many times...when's it going to get through their heads that f5:help is the last bloody place a GM should be since it's been proven that the only reason f5:chat is barren IS the GM presence in help ACTIVELY ENCOURAGES chat.
sad how the most pressing cpre issue i know of is a footnote for Istvan...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

now, in the thread of the first quote i linked was a horrible response by Gander...dunno what the hell happened to the original user of that account, but he's not been the person i respected many a moon ago. anyways, without further ado:

Gander wrote:
That's exactly it, Istvan. There's sort of a bunch of informal ground rules that most players accept, consciously or otherwise, in order to prevent the community from doing ugly things to itself. (Or, I should say more accurately, what's left of the community.) Stripping and/or splashing of commodities and equipment is one of the nonos. Everyone remember Aslan...

Establishing a precedent of stripping/splashing as a valid tactic opens up a whole lot more potential ugliness and polarization of the community. Considering there's only 1249 paying accounts left with peak online numbers of 70-90, do we really want to go there?

oh come off it, nobody ever took the RoC as their own personal code of honour except the "quake-in-spacers" who've smashed whatever hope we had of a culture that wasn't pure 'vigilante'...funny how Gander has trouble differing the informal IC code to the formal OOC code. go figure.

now then, the official acknowledgment of ISU's blockade does not translate into a precedent for the splashing, but the blockade. (seeing as how the official response is obviously about blockading, explicitly so)
    besides, ISU IS continuing to blockade aman, right? at least they'll probably try until peepz get excited about the bounty action
sure, the splashing was really lame, and i wish they'd roleplayed hauling it off to another station (easy to scan for anyone trying to haul cesium back)...they still have to haul stuff out. I do hope they realize splashing commods for any reason whatsoever is cheesy (gear as well) station stripping, and the act of such is considered to be 'griefing' for alot of folk, regardless of semantic tiddlywinks.

This is going to turn out badly, but i hope GM_Moll understands this (hopefully the reason for the official acknowledgement) and is paying attention to what's going on just like i'm doing - to try to learn something about how to bring Dynamic Real Content to JumpGate's MMOG community.

Ridgeway (mr.2nd account) wrote:
What we did is only subjectively harmful and already producing fun results for alot of people, but I do agree with you that it sets a potentially bad precedent. The FF shortage in itself, I suppose you agree at least partially, is not entirely bad from a players point of view.

Stripping/splashing to really hurt anyone in particular though like Aslan did is a non-issue these days, with PoS around. If I had to make a suggestion though on how to definitely make this perfectly workable, I would have said a FlashFire CP in Amananth - that leaves the option of circumventing the only one real weakness of the whole thing, the 6minute/buy cycle.

lmao oh puhleeeeeeez. yer just as bad as Gander, if not worse. pathetic.
  • "subjectively harmful"? hahahahaha Oh, i'd say your pouty and bloody hackneyed RP attempt is that, i'm more concerned you're attempting to justify further splashing until it becomes a convenience...trivial.
  • "a non-issue with POS"??? hahahahaha no factories yet you moron, and limited floor space than what we assumed..not to mention the stupid flux spawn rates.
disgusting display, eh? basically, his implied spin is that because of POS, splashing gear/commods is now legit. That's a nonsequitur...stripping is not splashing. stripping can be seen as legitimate, in some instances, splashing cannot ever be. (it's cheap like downing a 303 blueonblue pilot)
    to wit: basically, Ridgeway attempts to modify the COMMUNITY'S informal code of honourable conduct via a change in the OFFICIAL game engine other words, both Gander and Ridgeway fail to grasp even the modicum of IC/OOC dichotomy

Doplganger (bitching about GM_Istvan) wrote:
This is a lie as pilots have been “ manipulating the economy directly to manufacture money” form the start in beta, through commercial release and in EP2 its just the way of the Galaxy. Believe it or not some pilots play for the builder part of this game.

someone ban this moron, for god's sakes! He just did a heinous "strawman"'s just so sickening to see this guy get away with lurchingly embarrassing misquotes. Such bile without understanding what was posted. (hell, even in my most irate mode against pirates recently my misunderstanding was self-corrected and admitted)
    the guy doesn't learn. ban him ban ban ban ban ban ALL OF IT'S ACCOUNTS
jeezuz. this guy (like ridgeway and the rest of the morons) think their multiple accounts can replace the COUNTLESS people who've quit over their shenanigans they boast loudly and publically about?? Have they any idea of the fact if they get banned their account loss won't be felt at all because of the folks coming back because of their bannage?????
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyways, back to the happy thoughts: (please note that WilE doesn't explain alot of specific references he alludes to, and his take on the f5:help footnote get's a phat raspberry from me)
    anyways, in full and unabridged, herrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre's johnny
WilE wrote:
Doplganger, I realize you are the only person in your little universe whose opinion means anything, but I would also remind you that you are TRI-Classified, so you should really keep to yourself. Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.

IO, your stance in this whole affair leads me to believe you would be better served with a single-player, non-dynamic game. Your incessant rants are getting old. I understand you are upset about losing your time moving 17,000 FF's. My opinion is they did not have to be moved in the first place, so you asked for it.

Istvan, you are, by far, the uberest at ND. It is incredibly refreshing actually hearing from the Dev team.

I think it is about time that the GM's (Themis) start doing things like this. In this circumstance, I think it is quite warrented. I would begin to question their (GM's) motives if the Hyp v. Quant war was handled this way, as I don't think it is necessary. Yes, this is a double-standard. Honestly, I really don't care. Life is a double-standard. I did find it humorous that there was complaints about the - Amananth PR from ISU guys. If we were to really play the PR bit in a realistic fashion, there would be about six pilots with a positive PR in at least one faction. Hence the need for "special circumstances".

I think alot of the tension with Themis at this point is that the GM's have really become involved, it seems, with the RP; especially the PvP RP. This is causing some alternate scenarios to be played out, and alot of people are having difficulty with the inherent double-standard. Bottom line is the PvP'er is interested in different things than the non-PvP RP, that required different pros and cons to scenarios. Sorry, but that is life. For a long while, it seemed, the Themis GM's really sat back and did nothing. I guess they did, to a point, to observe and learn about us. Now everyone is alot more comfortable, and active, and people are having difficulties with it. I think we, as players, have a responsibility in trying to create RP. By that I mean that we should really keep Moll in the loop of our RP planning so that things are less hap-hazard looking. The more professional things look, the more realistic they seem, and the more fun they are.

I think the Developer tensions come from the lack in information, and the perceeved lack of interest by ND. While everything works, we hear from you, Istvan, when you want opinions, but that is about it, bar when there is a patch or two. Something I noticed in DAoC, was the parent company gave a "State of the Server" bit annually...or maybe twice a year. Basically, the Developers and head guys all posted a paragraph or two on what was going on. I see the biggest problem with this being that everyone will start complaining that "You said we get X, WHERE IS IT YOU BASTARDS. YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT US." Still, I think it would go along way to really improve the ND - Player relationship. We (players) would take a step closer to the loop.

The one thing I have noticed, as this is my first real MMOG "Community"-type game is that everyone seems to act as though we have a stake in the company. I know I feel that way. I suppose, in a way, we do. If we weren't here, the game would really be crappy. The flip side of that is that we need to realize we DO have a stake in this game and think about this before we start "RP-ing" some of the dumb things I have seen.

I think the other thing that really needs to happen is f5:help and these forums, especially the General Discussion section, should be severely regulated. You hit the nail on the head Istvan, they are our first, in-game impression and stand to make or break us. We are finally starting to really get some advertising, and I am confident we will be seeing more new pilots. We should really consider straightening up the place, taking out the trash, and maybe dusting. We all claim to agree that we need alot of new blood to make the game great again, it is time to put your money where your mouth is.

Yes, I am preachy tonight...but I am getting tired of alot of the complaining that has been going on. Everyone wants RP of one form or another, then they get it but it wasn't what they had in mind, so they complain about it incessantly. If half that effort was put into creative solutions, this would be the most interesting, dynamic game ever made.
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