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MajorFreak Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:23 pm Post subject: Capital Ship Blueprints. (Deluxe Edition) 


Hello, this will eventually contain a very solid database which i will use to construct ship deckplan blueprints. In order to reach this lofty goal i need to gather a few bits of data (and a few pics too)
:construction:
First off, since this is basically the first draft i'm going to have fun and start the initial task which is to get accurate size dimensions in relation to Real World examples of ships. (Specifically, a US navy destroyer matched foot to foot with a Kushan Ion Cannon Frigate) I have the "approximate" dimensions that will be used in an upcoming 'True True Scale MOD" for the ion cannon frigate.
Ion Cannon Dimensions conversion data
(thanks to Trebmal_ca)  I also have the ingame research manager's tech blueprints have been captured to images and uploaded for linking
 The manual's Technology section combined with the Ship Data section has enabled me to add footnotes to the ingame research blueprints.
 I've already located and downloaded the HWunitviewer & shipfiles (see here; umec's collection) The great thing about this program is that it goes into much more depth about the "story" behind most of the ship classes...I'll be adding those comments (in full) where possible at a later date.
 A project i'll undertake last is going to have to wait until Trebmal_ca comes out with the mod i referred to earlier. (taking actual ingame pics of the new scaling and posting a collage)
 I would like to add as a disclaimer that i hope Shade's concept of ship scales matches closely Treb's mod. (see here)
First off, like i said, i'm off to find a US navy destroyer (corvette or whatever. even frigate perhaps. hopefully modern as possible) picture that shows off the whole ship and is focused on the bridge in a way that's attractive and distinct...wish me luck
Secondly, after that's found, i'll need to find it's statistics. (length, height, width)
info page wrote: 
USS FIFE is the 29th of the 31 SPRUANCE class destroyers. Between June 27 and July 11, 2002, FIFE was the U.S. Task Group flagship for the Pacific Phase of the annual UNITAS exercise conducted with naval forces from five nations off the coast of Chile. The ship's fivemonth deployment to the Eastern Pacific Ocean for CounterDrug Operations and the UNITAS exercise is the final deployment for the destroyer, which is scheduled to be decommissioned on February 28, 2003.
General Characteristics: Keel Laid: March 6, 1978
Launched: July 21, 1979
Commissioned: March 31, 1980
Builder: Ingalls Shipbuilding, West Bank, Pascagoula, Miss.
Propulsion system: four General Electric LM 2500 gas turbine engines
Propellers: two
Blades on each Propeller: five
Length: 564,3 feet (172 meters)
Beam: 55,1 feet (16.8 meters)
Draft: 28,9 feet (8.8 meters)
Displacement: approx. 9,200 tons full load
Speed: 30+ knots
Aircraft: one SH60B Seahawk (LAMPS 3)
Armament: two Mk 45 5inch/54 caliber lightweight guns, one MK 41 VLS for Tomahawk, ASROC and Standard missiles, Mk 46 torpedoes (two triple tube mounts), Harpoon missile launchers, one Sea Sparrow launcher, one Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) System, two 20mm Phalanx CIWS
Homeport: Everett, Wash.
Crew: approx. 340 
now all i have to do isgrab a screenshot of the ICF in the same pose as that picture and then resize and fiddle, then bob's yer uncle we've got a scale comparison that's uber yummy...Since the ICF is 158m in length and the larger version of the DD991 pic i have is 480pixels wide, i'll have to resize the ICF's screenshot (same pose; pic edge at bow/stern) to 441pixels wide...
HW unit viewer wrote: 
Kushan Ion Cannon Frigate : Firelance
The Firelance class of frigate is one of the deadliest specialpurpose combat vessels ever made. When Kushan scientists finally made a breakthrough in directed particle beam technology, it was clear that it was just too large to mount effectively on the current class of capital ship hulls. Unwilling to wait for the evolution of larger hulls, combat engineers went to work wrapping a frigate class hull around the huge ion cannon itself. The result was the Firelance class of frigate, whose only real combat function is to deliver the incredible damage potential of the Ion Cannon to the battle. There are few sights more terrifying to the enemy than one of their ships caught in a web of perfect ruby cutting beams.
Unfortunately, this power does not come without a price, and the spinal mounting of the Cannon makes the Firelance one of the least adaptable ships in the fleet. In order to aim the beam, the entire ship must be moved and the massive power requirements needed to generate the accelerated ion stream means there is nothing left to power point defense turrets or even redundant life support systems. So while the Firelance has a reputation as a giantkiller, it is very vulnerable to small strike craft, which can easily dodge the ion cannon while delivering fire to the vulnerable sides and rear of the frigate. Traditionally, the first sign that a battle is going badly for a Kushan fleet is when the Firelances turn away and begin to retreat, before the line collapses and they are beset from all sides.
Mass: 13,000 tons (57,000 tons in manual) (not really sure if they used the same "scale" for this as the navy does.)i think there's a difference between "displacement" and actual mass...
Firepower: 3040 (4000 in manual)
Armor: 4200 (15000 in manual)
Coverage: 2%
Maneuverability: Low
Max.Velocity: 300m/s
Special function: none
*ingame firepower is dps (dmg/sec)* 
The tech blueprints:
BTW, i'll be using the MegaTraveller ship design rules that i'm quite familiar with over the years. (see here) 

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MajorFreak Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 11:41 am Post subject: 


The most important detail that must be established is the crew rosters. Now, i'm fairly certain the the HeavyCruiser was listed at around 150 crew? We're talking massive automation here...Assuming that miniturization is officially sanctioned (ie. fighters aren't huge) this is easy to deal with *IC* justification wise...MegaTraveller designs once one has the crew complement fixed is insanely easy. (course, i need to FIND the darned manual on that.)once i figure out what crew the official Relic guys liked to use then we can begin to guess at what TL the ships ar to be constructed...i'm guessing anywhere from TL1216. After that it's all a matter of tiddlywinks and lots and lots of paper wads tossed into the bin And as for Displacement tons versus other types of naval mass measurement?
Joe D. Fugate Sr wrote: 
Why is the 'ton' used to measure both displacement (volume) and physical weight? For example, the GCarrier discussed in Grand Census displaces less than 9 'tons', yet weighs 72 'tons' when empty. Is starship performance affected by cargos of excessive weights, even though they fit in the ship?  J. N.
MegaTraveller craft design clarifies the definition of the various types of tons on page 57 of the Referee's Manual.I agree with you that the terms can be confusing  which is why I tried to get away from using "tons" for volume, and using kiloliters instead for vehicle and spacecraft design. Our preference here at DGP is to clearly specify when we are talking about a displacement ton. For example: a Scout/Courier has a size of 100 displacement tons. To recap, here's the definitions given in MegaTraveller:
Tons Displacement: A widespread method of specifying a space vessel's size is to give its volume in terms of the amount of liquid hydrogen it would displace (as if it were immersed in a vast sea of liquid hydrogen). Tons displacement is not to be confused with the craft's weight in metric tons (that is, its actual mass). A starship that displaces 100 tons may actually weigh over 1,000 metric tons. A displacement ton is a measure of volume rather than weight; one displacement ton equals 13.5 kiloliters of volume.
Volume:A craft's volume is the amount of space it takes up. Volume is measured in kiloliters  a kiloliter equals one cubic meter. Thus a cube that is one meter on a side has a volume of one kiloliter. A kiloliter contains 1,000 liters; 13.5 kiloliters equals one ton of displacement.
Weight:A craft's weight is measured in metric tons. One metric ton equals 1,000 kilograms.
To answer your question about excessive cargo weight affecting starship performance, in MegaTraveller, loaded weight is computed using the mass of a cargo hold totally filled with water (i.e., 1 metric ton per kiloliter). This, clearly, is more massive than a typical cargo load.
Clarifying the distinction between displacement and mass has several interesting effects on the MegaTraveller craft design system. MegaTraveller ship performance (agility) is based on true ship mass, not displacement, so ship performance is realistically affected by changes in the ship's mass. I think this makes starship design in MegaTraveller both more fun and more challenging.
For example, if you want to armor your ship's hull to the hilt, you'll pay the price. Your ship's mass is going to skyrocket, and your ship's agility will suffer. The ship's displacement remains unaffected. 


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MajorFreak Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:44 am Post subject: 


:dunce: sorry, my bad, here's the RL version and not fictional...
Dictionary (Displacement Ton) wrote: 
A unit for measuring the displacement of a ship afloat, equivalent to one long ton or about one cubic meter of salt water 
Further refining this to the Megatraveller image we have another, more germaine post
Freelance Traveller wrote: 
Starshiptosurface ship comparisons
How big is a Traveller starship compared to a "wet" surface ship? This is complicated by the use of several different tonnage measurements for surfaceship measurements.
1. Civilian Ship Tonnage
1.1 Gross Tonnage:
The actual volume of the ship's interior, in "tons" of 100 cubic feet (about 1/5 of a Traveller Ton). This is the closest methodology to Traveller tonnage, and converts easily at a rate of 5 Tons Gross = 1 Ton Traveller. Examples are: WW2 Liberty Ship (TL6): 12000 Tons Gross = 2400 Tons Traveller
 RMS Titanic (TL5): 45000 Tons Gross = 9000 Tons Traveller
 RMS Queen Mary (TL6): 82000 Tons Gross = 16000 Tons Traveller
 Supertanker (TL8): 200000 Tons Gross = 40000 Tons Traveller
Going the other way: Type A Free Trader: 200 Tons Traveller = 1000 Tons Gross
 Type AL Stretched Free Trader: 300 Tons Traveller = 1500 Tons Gross
 Type R Subsidized Merchant: 400 Tons Traveller = 2000 Tons Gross
 Type RL Stretched Subsidized Merchant: 600 Tons Traveller = 3000 Tons Gross
 Type TI Frontier Transport: 2000 Tons Traveller = 10000 Tons Gross
 Type AHL Superfreigher: 6000 Tons Traveller = 30000 Tons Gross
1.2 Net Tonnage
The "revenue space" of the ship, i.e. the volume of the cargo holds and passenger accomodations only, measured in "tons" of 100 cubic feet. This is a bit harder to calculate; in Traveller terms, net tonnage counts only the cargo hold, passenger staterooms, and passenger low berths. Net tonnage is used in Traveller primarily to calculate the Commercial Efficiency Ratio (CER), a measure of a ship's relative profitability in service. Examples (all from the Traveller end) are: Type A Free Trader: 82ton hold, 6 passenger staterooms, 20passenger low berths. 82 + (6x4) + (20x1/2) = 116 Traveller Tons Net = 580 Tons Net
 Type AL Stretched Free Trader: 135ton hold, no passenger accommodations.
135 = 135 Traveller Tons Net = 675 Tons Net  Type R Subsidized Merchant: 200ton hold, 8 passenger staterooms, 10 passenger low berths. 200 + (8x4) + (10x1/2) = 237 Traveller Tons Net = 1185 Tons Net
 Type RL Stretched Subsidized Merchant: 390ton hold, 8 passenger staterooms, 10 passenger low berths.390 + (8x4) + (20x1/2) = 427 Traveller Tons Net = 2135 Tons Net
 Type TI Frontier Transport: 1114ton hold, no passenger accomodations.1114 = 1114 Traveller Tons Net = 5570 Tons Net
 Type AHL Superfreigher: 4072ton hold, 24 passenger staterooms, no low berths.4072 + (24x4) = 4168 Traveller Tons Net = 20840 Tons Net
1.3 Deadweight Tonnage
This is the actual weight of the ship's fullload cargo capacity, the maximum weight of cargo the ship can carry. As this is a weight measurement and Traveller tonnage is a volume measurement, there is no way to interconvert between the two.
2. Military Ship Tonnage
Warships are always measured by "displacement tonnage", the actual weight of the ship, which translates directly into the hull volume in cubic meters below the waterline. This varies according to how fully the ship is loaded; fortunately, various armscontrol treaties of the battleship era (TL56) defined specific types of loading for tonnage determination. The most useful of these are:
Full Load Displacement
Fully loaded  crew, supplies, ammunition, fuel all topped off. This is the closest approximation to Traveller measurement. The volume of the ship below the waterline translates into Traveller tonnage on a 14to1 basis. (However, most of the ship is above the waterline.)
Standard Displacement
As Full Load, but no fuel. This is the default size measurement of a warship; if size is given in "tons" with no other qualifier, it is standard displacement tonnage.
Submerged Displacement
Used only for submarines, this is the weight of the sub at neutral buoyancy, which translates directly into hull volume in cubic meters. This translates directly into Traveller tons at a ratio of 14 tons submerged = 1 Ton Traveller.
Since displacement tonnage is a measure of weight and Traveller tonnage of volume, any conversion between the two will be approximate.
To convert Surface Ships from wetnavy to Traveller:
2.1 Always start with fullload displacement tonnage.
2.2 Divide the fullload tonnage by 14 to get the Traveller tonnage for the amount of the ship below the waterline.
2.3 Estimate the proportion of the ship below the waterline (about 1/3 for most ships, down to 1/2 for heavily armored battleships) and multiply by the reciprocal of this fraction.
2.4 A ruleofthumb for 2.3 is:
2.4.1 Unarmored ship (Destroyers, TL45 light cruisers, most TL79 construction)  5 tons fullload = 1 Ton Traveller (coincidentally, this is the same ratio as a civilian ship's Gross Tonnage).
2.4.2 Moderatelyarmored ship (TL45 armored cruisers, TL56 battlecruisers, most TL6 cruisers)  6 tons fullload = 1 Ton Traveller.
2.4.3 Heavilyarmored ship (TL46 battleships only)  7 tons fullload = 1 Ton Traveller.
Examples(Unarmored)
 Destroyer USS Fletcher (TL6): 2000 tons std, 3000 fullload = approx. 600 Tons Traveller
 Destroyer USS Cole (TL9): 8400 tons fullload = approx 1700 Tons Traveller
 Carrier USS Enterprise (TL7): 75000 tons std, 90000 fullload = approx. 18000 Tons Traveller
 Light Carrier HMS Invincible (TL8): 16000 tons std, 20000 fullload = approx. 4000 Tons Traveller
 Carrier USS Nimitz (TL89): 80000 tons std, 92000 fullload = approx. 18000 Tons Traveller
(Moderatelyarmored)
 Battlecruiser HMS Hood (TL5): 42000 tons std, 45000 fullload = approx. 7500 Tons Traveller
 Typical "Treaty Cruiser" (TL56): 10000 tons std, 13000 fullload = approx. 2000 Tons Traveller
 Armored Cruiser KMS Graf Spee (TL6): 12000 tons std, 16000fullload = approx. 2600 Tons Traveller
 Battlecruiser KMS Scharnhorst (TL6): 32000 tons std, 38000 fullload = approx. 6300 Tons Traveller
 Carrier HMS Ark Royal (TL6): 22000 tons std, 28000 fullload = approx. 4500 Tons Traveller
 Carrier USS Enterprise (TL6): 20000 tons std, 26000 fullload = approx. 4300 Tons Traveller
(Heavilyarmored)
 Battleship USS Oregon (TL4): 10000 tons std, 12000 fullload = approx. 1700 Tons Traveller
 Battleship HMS Majestic (TL4): 15000 tons std, 16000 fullload = approx. 2300 Tons Traveller
 Battleship HMS Dreadnaught (TL5): 18000 tons std, 22000 fullload = approx. 3000 Tons Traveller
 Battleship USS Arizona (TL5): 25000 tons std, 33000 fullload = approx. 5000 Tons Traveller
 Battleship KMS Bismarck (TL6): 42000 tons std, 50000 fullload = approx. 7000 Tons Traveller
 Battleship USS New Jersey (TL6): 45000 tons std, 58000 fullload = approx. 8000 Tons Traveller
 Battleship HIJMS Yamato (TL6): 60000 tons std, 72000 fullload = approx. 10000 Tons Traveller
To convert Submarines to Traveller tonnage:
2.5 Start with submerged tonnage.
2.6 Divide the submerged tonnage by 14 to get the Traveller tonnage.
Examples Type VII Uboat (TL6  Das Boot): 900 tons submerged = approx. 65 Tons Traveller
 USS Nautilus (TL7): 4000 tons submerged = approx. 300 Tons Traveller
 USS Los Angeles (TL8): 6900 tons submerged = approx. 500 Tons Traveller
 Kursk (TL8): 18000 tons submerged = approx. 1300 Tons Traveller
 "Red October" (TL8): 29000 tons submerged = approx. 2000 Tons Traveller
Notes
The use of 100 cubic feet as a "ton" for civilian shipping dates back to the 19th Century (TL4), when the British Empire was Earth's maritime superpower. (Longitude on Earth is still measured in degrees East or West from the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, a suburb of the British capital.) The "foot" of 30.5cm was a standard measurement of the British Empire of the time; the familiar metric system was just becoming established after being originated by the Brits' bitter rivals, the French.
Standard Displacement was defined by the Washington Treaty of 1922, a TL5 arms limitation agreement drawn up to prevent a bankrupting naval arms race after the end of the First World War. This treaty defined maximum sizes and weapons for various types of warship, limited each navy to a maximum total tonnage for "capital ships" (the largest combatants), and provided for replacements to be built at the end of a defined service life. The treaty spawned other treaties further limiting navies, but all such treaties were allowed to expire or were withdrawn during the buildup for the Second World War.
This page last updated on 13 January 2003 by Jeff Zeitlin. Text ©20002003 Ken Pick. Page design ©19982003 Jeff Zeitlin
Freelance Traveller is maintained by Jeff Zeitlin
Freelance Traveller can be contacted via our Feedback page or at editor@freelancetraveller.com
® Traveller is a registered trademark (19772003) of FarFuture Enterprises. Use of the trademark on this page is not intended to infringe upon or devalue the trademark. 
Now, this is interesting because JumpGate uses kilograms for mass, and not "displacement tonnage"...there's also the tricky subject of what unit does the "distance" (UCS) convert to? (meters?)taking a comparison between the smallest ship and largest in the Quantar fleet and bumping them into objects gives a difference of 44ucs...since we already know the length (in ucs) of a Storm
we can deduce that 4.5ucs should be added to the Freighter tested unit and times by 2 in order to get true length (in ucs) The Freighter's length from bow to stern is ~100ucs (rounded up to a nice number, of course)...now, since i really don't believe anyone buys the idea that the Storm is actually 10 "meters" in length, we're left wondering how to convert this to imperial/metric measurement.
If you asked me, i'd say the storm would be approx the size of a piper cub airplane of today and yesteryear (22'5"/6.83m) but since the wingspan and tail would be longer for obvious reasons, i'd say the storm would be actually smaller than this. unfortunately, we have no scale comparison with a humanoid pilot...I'd hazard a guess that a rough UCS > Meters conversion was 2 : 1[i]which would mean our mighty "Chinook" would be ~50m in length  alot longer than it's reallife cousin. In the final analysis, we're a bit closer to understanding what UCS is not, and we're damned sure NetDevil used UCS so they didn't have to really worry about realistic scales and getting into hot water with curious cats like me. 

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MajorFreak Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 4:06 pm Post subject: 


wait. I have some definite new data thanks to OP_Toast and Timski
JOSSH FlightAcademy wrote: 
2. VELOCIMETER
Displays your current velocity in mps (meters per second). Text will display green if afterburners are active, and red if breaking thrusters are firing. 
That section has many references to 'Meters'....okay, so a Storm is almost 10m long. blech.
UCS, i've discovered through much headbashing with forum members is a handy dandy jackofalltrades unit of measurement (not only for cubic, but linear as well)UCS = Universal Cargo Size
JOSSH FlightAcademy wrote: 
At this point you have been assigned your first ship. It is most likely a scout with enough cargo space to store no more than four universal cargo units. 
Now, all i really have to do is find someone who knows how to calculate the total ship volume by using some funky 3D graphics program formula to figure it out. 

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