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[EU server] TRI Rookies used as plot bait???

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:35 pm    Post subject: [EU server] TRI Rookies used as plot bait??? Reply with quote

okay, so there's the usually banal screaming catfight about woop dee doo over on EU server between the OV, DP, TBH and TRI. uh huh. deja vu?

okay, so i personally don't care whether or not x gives y statement and includes z or else a) or b) happens. I mean, isn't it odd that official mindsets think it perfectly fine to lead a bunch of rookies into unreg? and have one of the infamous pvp squads announce some kind of coincidental event? Doesn't this strike anyone as FAIRLY PREDICTABLE?! (who cares about rookies, right? they'd just get ignored...right? hhahaha)
    GUESS (from reading forums early on): easy to figure in the minds of MG. They have no clue that "rookie" + "unreg" + "official event" = teenie weenie temptation to introduce rookies to PvP (plot device? create some local event that had OV clash with say.....TBH? Things get a bit dicey and some stray shots spook rookies all for the better?)
  • betcha anything TRI officials got spooked as well. Why on earth did Thrice Seven members get bounties? Did they just happen by? ah well, i'll go read the RP since i'm getting zero facts off the forums (no surprise there)
:drop:
okaaaaaaay. looks like my guess how it went down was kinda off. reading the article gives a picture of a setup pirate encounter. omg. staged. eep. okay, so while i go puke in this barf bag i'm going to guess that someone decide to add a little spontaneity to this event? Did they know through leaks? happened by? Is even OV is in on it? They're all in on in except the griefers?

Okay, anyways, i'm going back to reading it to see when OV appears on the scene...oh dear. Looks like DP ganks a n00b over an RP issue? don't think THAT was scripted. *shudder*
:o
eh? okay, hold phone. OV + DP + TBH? emmmmmm. huh? *blink* insane

okay. good. names. i can work with that. i'm running under the assumption they wouldn't use real n00bs for this, so i'm going to keep track of these so called heroes.
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=protozoon
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=Lilarcor
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=Bartlebee
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=TPOO-Reef
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=TomG2002
http://jumpgate.mightygames.com/jgeng/PilotViewer?p=Heathen_
(can't even be arsed to spell properly. anything but names. jeez, guys)
    personally, i was pissed there weren't any n00bs getting medals. they gotta be out of their minds. the "n00bs" (if it was for real) were the bravest bunch of the lot. lol
regardless of whether this was totally scripted, totally freeform or a combo. the issue still stands that TRI Rookies squad is no longer deemed acceptable to me personally. *IC* and *OOC*
I'm going to be altering suggestions in FAQs on this site to emphatically warn against joining this bunch of idiots


Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't even CARE how thrice seven and OV got mixed up. really, i don't give a damn...WTF is with rookies from an official Mentor squad doing in an official event? There's no way in hell that wasn't staged.

*shakes head*
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BaadF00d
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Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, there are actually two entirely seperate incidents apparently blowing up at the sam etime:

1. The TRI rookie event. OV did not down the rookie and the poster of the news article admits that he claimed they did IC not OOC. Wether thats a good idea or not is upto debate - nonetheless the huge carfight over the appropriateness of OV's penalties is not about this event at all.

2. OV shot down two of the NPC thrice seven accounts. One was HG, the other boutnied at the time. They had no escort, and last time the thrice7 squad was active they were in conflict with OV that was never resolved. I am of course biased towards OV but my take is obviously that the thrice7 pilots were idiots for thinking they would not be shot down in that situation.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh. even worse...what if MG really didn't script this ahead of time, but word got either leaked or announced. oh man, in that case...*shudder*
    i mean, WTF is the big deal with some stupid ThriceSeven pansies while some n00bs. just. got. massacred. in. unreg.
and please, god, i beg of you to try and pull the "there's no honor in unreg" bit on me. YOU might believe that HG and unreg means, "shoot me!"

ahhh..that's the thing, isn't it? While i don't believe that, at least i'm fucking intelligent enough to realize most do. especially the idiot throttle jockeys out there in la la land.
    Fascinating in a sort of driving by a car crash kinda thing...just can't fathom why the spotlight isn't on the n00b gankers and instead lies on some fagg0ty drama over in la la land??
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baadf00d: ah, cheers. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this sudden melodrama...it's a bit to coincidental. Only reason i can think of that MG would aid this silliness would be to detract from something embarrassing...namely that n00b massacre.

There's no way in hell it's anything else.
ditto
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soon to be banned muffy wrote:
i find that unbelievable. a little trite perhaps. any idea how pissed off i am? Do any of MG staff realize how *OOC* happy we dedicated n00b helpers are that an official n00b forum and n00b squad have been created only to see spit all over our face because of this?

course you don't. a n00b didn't die. apparently they didn't even get podded. According to you idiots, a bunch of customers just realized how much fun pvp could be. *clap* so happy for you, i'm sure the Event went great.

i'll make sure i underline the bit where i don't recommend TRI Rookies to anyone. OXOXXOX

In case this turns out to be some sort of SICK FUCKING joke, i'll be suuuuure to apologize for insulting you all



Last edited by MajorFreak on Sat Nov 09, 2002 7:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay. let's see now...I took a bit of time to figure out what was the core of the problem. It's not whether it involved TRI Rookies. not how many n00bs (if any) were ganked in unreg. not who did what to whom during and after. not who said what on the forums.

It was optics alone. This is what my 1st impression was of seeing the article on MG's main page: "Okay, so i'm a prospective customer who's experience with MMOGs needs improvement and i see 'new players casually ganked' posted" (that is more refined to my experience to mean: MG's cavalier attitude to way PvP is perceived in JG is evident by the instigation of this 'misadventure')
    You don't see any, Unreg 101 tips or FAQs anywhere. namely because n00bs just don't ask those kind of questions. There's no reason for someone unable to handle mantas nor the technicalities of unreg beek flipping to be in unreg. period.

    Personally, i'm going to keep my eye out for FAQs of this sort, but the lack of such isn't the rare times one gets questions like this, it's the shitty quality of responses that have been without exception badly worded and unfit to quote
There. that wraps that up.
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Xindaan
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Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MajorFreak wrote:
Baadf00d: ah, cheers. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this sudden melodrama...it's a bit to coincidental. Only reason i can think of that MG would aid this silliness would be to detract from something embarrassing...namely that n00b massacre.

There's no way in hell it's anything else.
ditto


Err, no, that can't be it. The timing is off. The OV thing started, as far as I know, with this thread. Nov 7. The reply of the Oct emperor where he announced (not executed) the polstat-thing, came here, Nov 8. The noob thing was also posted at the same day, Nov 8. The noob event took place in the evening of Nov 7, way after the OV thing was set in motion. Unfortunately, the noob news is not in the News & Comments board so I have no idea when exactly it got up. But the flames about the noob thing started way after the flames about the OV thing.

Personally, I'm following TotalNoob and don't touch anything with a 40k long pole. :)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2002 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahhhhhhh...i wondered about that (reason i chose that smiley.) good thing i made it a moot point with my last post, or i'd have really looked the fool. (this way i just look like muffy, and MG look foolish twice over)
    yeah. i don't want to touch that silly OV versus TRI stuff either...never did like squad hissy fits. (TRI enforcers are just another gang) Though my opinion of what the consequences are for RP with the emperor trying to save face over the massive *IC* feedback about the silliness with TRI whining over ganks will be entertaining to say the least. (though i'm sure MG will muck that RP up too)
though i AM going to double check times and dates. you see, even if my 'bait&switch' accusation rings hollow, the key to the truth is to find out when the announcement was made by the emperor and time that to the n00b gank attributed to OV. (since i for one hate n00bgankers with a passion, i'm assuming the knee-jerk *IC* reaction by TRI would play to the hatred i imagine MG has for such grief-crimes (even in unreg)
    a n00b is a n00b is a n00b (<10th lvl)
BTW, has TBH taken hostages before? or was Fellblade referring (in the first reply after culric) to that n00b massacre? I'm assuming his 'hostage' reference indicates this 'announcement' was a knee-jerk OTT reaction to rumor. ah well, it would be kinda mean to still hold MG to the sinister 'bait&switch' as well. (might as well give them the benefit of the doubt so they can save some face...hopefully)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GMTwoSide wrote:
Finally I am quite surprised that some actually believe that we would set Ovs polrates back to -100 and ruin their in game experience. Although good RP can be seen for it, we don't want to force RP at the cost of players' fun. Even if we wanted to give OV members a -100 polrate, we couldn't possibly do it Saturday as MG offices are closed then. It can be seen as a subtle hint that the news item was posted Friday but I can imagine that this wasn't taken into account.

...blah blah blah...

One of the other complaints I have heard is that MG didn't notify OV about the RP. I am sorry, but this isn't 'My Little Pony' we're 'playing' here. You
aren't supposed to directly know and/or understand what the RP is all about or what the consequences will be. In the past a lot of things have happened that squads weren't informed about. RP has lately been intensified and taken up by a historic amount of people. The TRI boards have never been as frequently used, almost purely IC, and Diashi managed to get a different board opened at the TRI discussion where he demonstrated higher thinking about possible outcomes and motivations for various parts of the RP. I am happy to state we are harvesting our many investments into RP projects and systems to get RP going, and it is
getting more complex and better organised by the month. With JG we wish to offer everybody a challenge, that of simply learning to know the game, of accomplishing both relatively simple objectives or to accomplish greater things with persistent and plausible RP. I guess we have moved a bit too quickly.

BRAVO BRAVO! encore!! Unfortunately, he should have skipped that massive rant leading up to those paragraphs. instead it was lost in the middle of a pedantic and pointless troll...for your reading pleasure (though you can skip it, because 2sides above quote makes it redundant)...Although this applies strictly to the OV-TRI ultimatum issues and not the rookie bit....The rookie bit he apologized for the timing. which it's nice to get an apology and stuff and kinda forces me onto a strange footing here since the base assumption of mine is that the timing wasn't just an honest mistake but a 'cause & effect' thing. All i can say on this matter is that making a sincere apology when one doesn't understand what one did wrong will just lead to the lack of education on said GM's part. *shrug* (Oh well, at least he's sincere.)
    and i'm too classy to lay into THAT particular issue. He just screwed up on the optics, and he apologized for that even though he missed the point. I'll leave it at that
okay, so that was my opinion of 2side. now let's critique the expected and probably pointless whining to try and find some pearls in the pig stye. (assuming most of them didn't bother reading the GMs comments in full)
    schani made a few points that were lost in his drivel. everything he said was mired in confusion. wish i could have quoted his Dungeon Master comment, but even then it's simply not worded in a way that doesn't support the devil's advocate position strongly enough...it's like he's grasping at straws

    The rest of OV responses are equally outraged and go so far as to mention stuff that belongs in conspiracy theories. *shrug*
Nicator wrote:
3) Several OV members went on IRC to talk to OPs and GMs. While I was extremely annoyed, I tried to stay polite. I wasn't exactly perfectly successful, but I was doing my best, and I was good and didn't use any naughty language . From talking to them I was absolutely left with the impression that our pols would be set to -100 if we didn't apologise. Is making customer who is already extremely worried even more worried a good thing from a customer relations point of view?

personally, i think that's a good point. if true. unfortunately, my impression of Nicator is he couldn't see a nuance if one came up and quoted shakespeare to him. (ie. IRC chat for spammers is like one's own personal soap box with a free audience)
    though, to give nic the benefit of the doubt, i don't think an IRC chat AFTER the event fits the connotation of, 'diplomatic reception'
    EDIT: nicator got validated later on in the thread, so the jury is instructed to pay particular attention to this color
FellBlade wrote:
I was contacted by no less than 3 OPs/GMs to be told "They will actually do this"

hmmm...this backs up Nicator's rant i quoted.
    EDIT: validated later on...see below in BlueGhost's quote. Actually, in this thread Fellblade continually comes across as a bit unhinged
    :wig: (good thing he's got a good backup crew)
BigDom wrote:
I DO feel that the emporer gravely misjudged things when it comes to penalties however. a Penalty of say 0 pol would have been severe but I'm certain would not have provoked a galaxy wide OOC response.

yeah. that would have been a nice touch. why put a bounty on them? -100 strips them of armor and ammo. prevents trading and purchasing. and all that jazz. it's kind serious in an *OOC* way...it's not impossible though, all i'm saying it's a serious *OOC* drain on one's resources. (it's like the DM in a dungeon and dragon's setting to tell a player they just died. and oh yeah, you can always come back if you create another character)
    -100 PR puts a huge drain on one's *IC* pocketbook because insurance is zero. (it's zero for anything under 0 anyways) -50 is ammo and armor stripped i think.
Giomani wrote:
I still do not agree that all RP should be pre-planned and orchestrated to a pre-determined script. The potential beauty of this current situation is that OV were suddenly faced with a situation they did not expect and were faced with a very serious dilemma. To publicly lose face (in their eyes) and admit that they had made a mistake, or face banishment from their home and the extreme hardships of unregulated space.

again. yet another 'missed the point' fools who never read the entire rant. (granted, that's to be expected)
    *muffy gives GM2side a smack upside the head with a trout*

    normally, i'd counter Giomani's argument by countering with the thought that OV faced a loss of face by the very mention of this dire ultimatum... -100pr makes one pretty much the "kick em when down" laffing stock of the community. (so to speak) Unfortunately for me, i can't use that argument because of that quote waaaaaaay up at the top of this post i made makes it a moot counter-point. *shrug*
BlueGhost wrote:
If when we talked to iskandir on IRC on friday he had been able to say 'this is intirely IC, guys go away make up your own IC responce e-mail it to us we'll stick it on the news or get back to you if its un-feasable'

hmmmmm...now this is the first bit of solid 'devil's argument' by OV. sounds like the IRC chat was NOT an informal session.
    BlueGhost confirms the importance of this POV. at first i missed the "IF" and thought OV material by nicator and fellblade were troll posts. heh
Schani wrote:
Surely we as players cannot demand to be informed of every single event and twist that mightygames's staff have dreamt up, but with an event that HINGES on participation of not only OV-members but also HINGES on a command decition Fellblade's word would surely be the final one on the matter.

hmmm...he's got a point there. might even be strong enough to be the best counter-argument i've read so far.
    my god i actually think Schani made the best quote of the entire thread.
jimcrossland (GymCee) wrote:

If this whole OV v Emperor or OV v Octavia whatever thing comes off will this mean that those little bars (political atmosphere) on jossh finally move. So Octavians are at war with Octavians??

edit:wootage just realised after 10 months of playing finally got my 100th post :)

i'm not sure, but it may. unfortunately, it would depend on numbers and i doubt the combined numbers versus the player base (even classified? not sure) would put it anywhere near neutral...It's weighed for pilot level (higher rank, more effect a negPR has on the scale) but the numbers of optimus with high rating just invalidates the possibility. It would be a nice touch, and if it did effect some slide to the left it would fall FULLY on MG to deal with that event, IMHO...unfortunately, i don't think they'd bother at all, especially when there's no coding in the game to account for a WAR status. (all tags will just say, "ALLY" anyways. so it's pointless...and probably seen as pointless to officially recognize that via RP too)
    grats on yer 100th. always a big milestone. 8)
Baadf00d wrote:
hmmm, I dont particularly buy 2Sides assertation that the posts were done IC (and thus, OVs response should have been IC).

Statements were made by Clementus IV that referred directly to what I see as OOC actions.

Perhaps this game is different, but I generally treat character stats as OOC info. Everyone who plays DnD *knows* how much charisma their character has, but from an IC perspective there is no objective numerical measurement - merely a known ability to smaooth talk ones way through situations.

Jumpgate is perhaps different, but for the most part I see character stats like factional PR and character level as OOC representations of IC less tangible attributes being factional standing and reputation. And I think amny people subconciously understand that - so when Clementus IV makes a statement that Oct PR will be set to -100 - it begins to look like a OOC penalty, not an ICopportunity for RP.

ALSO, Im convinced that most diplomacy goes on behind closed doors, and grand demands are made NOT as a point to bargin from, but as a prelude to or excuse for war.

That's a good point. hmmmm...wish i could get to the point that fast.
    course, i remember Baadf00d back when he used to post mini-novels that strained your fingers scrolling to get past the horrible things. heee
    :P
CONCLUSION
Okie dokie. MG is coming from the POV that hints the ultimatum could have been alot worse...OV is coming from the POV that the hints the ultimatum could have been less were noexistent until now. (based on the fear that they didn't know if they'd have -100pr once MG offices opened on monday morning)
    MG is playing games here. no doubt in my mind. It's like they've been corrupted by the "*IC*" BS OTT RP PvP i've seen so much of...especially the potty mouthed behavior so prelevant. The "honour among thieves" context. *spit*




======================================
APPENDIX: this is the flame war forum after all. *g*
======================================
Since this is the flame war forum i'm going to happily leave the below in as i had created it. I luff reading my rants. call me narcissistic.
:razz:
BTW, OV made a statement in response to the "Emperor's" ultimatum here


============== made prior to above comments ============
is GM2side that much of an ass?
My god. what a pompous twit.
2side wrote:
This is because I have either written them (the TRI-rookies one) or fully agreed to them (the Emperor and the TRI open letter). The latter two I conceive personally as absolutely magnificent RP. All posts were made fully IC, but unfortunately aren't generally perceived this way

uh huh. yeah cupcake, and that's exactly how 100% of griefers view their "RP" about being the total and complete utter assholes they can't be in real life. I wonder if he realizes he didn't even try to back that up with an iota of information beyond, "and god (2side) viewed his creation and all was good" *sigh* (and what's this cutesy word, 'latter two' in there for? sex appeal?)
    good grief. before you go read that, whenever that git uses the words "latter two" in a sentence translate it to "latter issue" instead. sheesh. But enough with the GrammarNazi attitude, let's get down to brass tacks: GM_Git posted 4 "facts" behind the motives for OV getting an ultimatum from TRI (ignoring the fact the idiot posted *OOC* on general forums about and *IC* matter and assumed he "knew" OV motives. (i'm sure he just made another fucking typo and he's just saying MG's motives for carrying out the sanction)

    PLEASE SKIP TO # 12. i'm dealing with each point in detail just to show i read the fucking thing
  1. OV has the ultimate goal to take over the entire galaxy. [/i](and bring macdonalds to every POS as well. stfu moron, you're stuffing irrelevant words in their mouth)[/i]
  2. Did OV by this not willingly endanger the entire galaxy and
    TRI in particular? (by freeing some NPC who can't "affect" anything unless MG fucking wants it to doesn't exactly have ANYTHING to do with this, you just pulled that one out yer ass to look smart.)
  3. Did OV not, against TRI rules and wishes, confiscate the Rush production from Hyperial escalating the conflict between Hyperial and TRI? (yeah? someone explain to me what exactly i'm listening to? a fucking history professor? I'm sure you can do better than that once you grow out of your diapers)
  4. Does OV not wage war with a large amount of squads, and hence disrupt peace and prosperity? Aren't there pro-TRI squads amongst these squads? (uh yeah, and once again WATER IS WET - but who gives a fuck?!)

  5. The emperor [wishes OV to] not shoot down TRI representatives or heroes) in order not to endanger the relationship with TRI; (impeccable timing, moron. please keep up with current events before stating how to suck eggs, thanks)
  6. The emperor wishes to appease TRI (appease? okay, excuse me for asking, but WTF is TRI? The U.N. or an obnoxious superpower? What faction is TRI? i'll get to this later. it's been bugging me for a while actually.
  7. By threatening with a very harsh penalty he tries to force OV in adopting his strategy. (as opposed to a slap on the wrist, the emperor threatens the MAXIMUM penalty...or, are you suggesting that they could have docked a few levels and millions from each pilot as well???? asshole sure likes to blather)
  8. "TRI doesn't have the stomach to correct the Octavian empire, as it fears it will further get away from TRI control. Therefore TRI, by one of its political liaisons - and not a prime himself, if the open letter fails in its objective it can fire the dept.head and tell it was not agreed upon by TRI high command etc - demands an apology on a rather trivial event, compared to past offences. By this, they hope to be able to get some grip on the rogue Octavian element in TRI and work on this basis." (while an excellent post, it's "a possibility" and thus CANNOT BE USED AS EVIDENCE. nobody wants to hear this shit...besides, if the emperor is some "minor functionary" then i'm the easter bunny. why didn't the emperor tell tri to fuck itself and grow some balls?)
  9. Or could it be that they are now tackling the Octavian empire on it's mistakes and start correcting them one by one. By making OV apologise a perfect precedent is being set on which TRI can
    further rectify Octavian misdoings to TRI. (uhhhhhhhh...nm. see my previous post. Emperor to TRI: "you and who's fucking army?"

  10. Publicly correcting the Octavian empire the claims by Esquire lose a lot of basis. Besides this, both parties involved can have other motivations, of course. (oh right. uhm...no, the Emperor looks like a fool for going so OTT on OV ass...or are you AGAIN suggesting that the penalties weren't as high as you could have gone?!)

  11. Also, during the RP evaluation, where players sent us their wishes and input concerning RP, one of the strongest wishes was that in-game actions did actually have consequences. I think these news items are strong examples that we listened to that wish. (uh yeah, okay. if i write a letter to tri saying my younger brother is stealing my cereal and that measures need to be taken you send in the orbital artillery????!!! Again, you only reinforce this "i didn't use the full censure options available to me" innuendo)
  12. However, these newsitems weren't perceived as IC. Allow me to comment on the reactions of these newsitems. The first reaction was that the news posts gave OV no choice but to accept the RP and kill their own RP, or refuse it and in effect get banned from the server. (ahhhhhh...jeezuz h. christ. Okay, let's look at this from his POV: 2side figures that -100PR might be the maximum, but having a lesser hit wouldn't make sense *IC* or *OOC* Fine, that's perfectly reasonable assumption if one was coming from a logical basis, but since 2side has failed to meet any demands for decent (not random) facts on this, TRI's ultimatum is OTT.)
  13. OV doesn't like the demand by the emperor and doesn't accept it without objecting to it. This route was taken by Jam. They try to show why they disagree with the demands and with the public communication in total with the aim to convince the emperor, or to get the penalties for not apologising less strict. It is plausible the emperor demanded more than he really wanted in order to be able to reach a consensus both parties can live by, which is a generally known tactic in diplomacy; (yeah, there's also a generally known tactic in diplomacy to make very slow steps in negotiations and do the real negotiations in the informal "receptions" away from the public forum where one could lose face. in order to illustrate this i've begun research to illustrate this point. go here.)
  14. (next, there's a hint that one of the consequences could have been that "OV call the emperor's bluff".....nah, more like "OV call the emperor naked")
  15. the claim made that apologising is in contradiction to the OV RP is something that I cannot agree to. As shown above, there are enough IC reactions to the news items that are plausible and in line with your RP. (see below for my conclusion. don't want to repeat myself)
The 13th point is half the crux of the matter. It rests on the fact that "informal" private discussions were BEING carried out that explicitly let OV know that TRI was willing, PERHAPS to back away from the initial threat of -100pr to something lesser. (what it sounds like instead was MG kept OV in the dark and "hoped" for this to be understood. wink wink nudge nudge) The other point (#15) is, if OV was given a decent reason to swallow such a hit IN THE FIRST PLACE they'd be looked at as fools for not thinking the choices were warranted BY THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY. But there was nothing. Nothing. NOTHING about why "TRI" feels current events triggered the ultimatum. nada zip zero. Might as well have said..."well, it's just coincidence we decided to do so now" (note: synchronicity is a wonderful thing, but destroys the audiences willing suspension of disbelief. The Greeks perfected this plot point in drama. it was called, "Deus Ex Machina" (there was no continuity before the fact, during the fact and absolutely no continuity contained in 2sides "excuses")
======================================


Last edited by MajorFreak on Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nicator
First Sergeant
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Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I came off only partially singed after my first muffy disection (that I know of). I feel so proud duh .

EDIT: As a clarification for point 15, OV will do exactly the same thing as regards the Thrice Seven NPCs the next time we see them HG in our space. They are at Limited war status, and we haven't been given a good reason to take them off yet. Which kinda makes apologising pointless - next time (if the RP was to be kept consistent and TRI was no longer ignoring our attacking Thrice Seven) we wouldn't even get the opportunity to apologise (after all, our word is no longer worth anything at that point), and the punishment would be even more severe.

The result of this is that we would not only become the laughing stock of Octavius for kneeling before our perceived oppressors, set a bad example to the rest of Octavius, lose our pride and the value of our word, we would also get another huge punishment to face. That's why it would be against our roleplay. Our characters gain nothing but a short reprieve.

Argh. Must. Stop. Editing. Can't. Type.


Last edited by Nicator on Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:41 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Lupus
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
(good thing he's got a good backup crew)


We try our best.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GM_Iskander posts a synopsis
uhm...dunno what to think until i sit down and read the darned thing at least thrice seven. *g*
:read:
Iskander wrote:
If we had known the posts would be perceived OOC, and that by giving a prior warning they would be perceived IC, it is safe to assume we would have provided a warning.
Muffy comment: not bad interpretation of what Baadf00d illustrated. hopefully they understood his point about how OOC "-100pr" was

The ['if Fellblade had been on holiday'] post from BlueGhost made the most sense about us giving prior warnings and will be used in the future. 'Luckily' in this case the following point wasn't valid.
Muffy comment: uh huh. sounds like egg sucking 101 to me. (backfired bigtime too.)
    even mentioning that as the lesson learned is like admitting one is willfully ignorant towards your customers instead of dealing with the pragmatics of *IC*/*OOC* lessons
MG hereby apologises for the insinuation and wrong assumption that OV downed a TRI rookie. As was mentioned in the first post as well, it was an honest to God mistake that this assumption was made
Muffy comment: hmmmm...doubt OV will ever get an apology over the fact the -100pr announcement was posted immediately after the rumor of the n00b gank, post hoc, ergo propter hoc (ie. It's automatic to assume i'm making a non-sequitur/fallacy)
    since i never sought prove this empirically - i'm not after a confession - but simply to point out that there IS a pattern here no matter how hard you emphasize 'coincidence', ipso facto. QED
In the most important log, that of GMIskander talking to Fellblade, nowhere was the question asked if the ?100 polrate was going to happen, nor was it confirmed that it would happen. The log in fact proved that we hinted that a lot of scenarios were possible and that the news items were to be perceived as IC. The assumption that the -100 pol was going to happen, based on OOC motivations, was something that was already perceived as a given in the conversation
muffy comment: buh? you see the bolded latter bit clearly contradicts the former. 'Given' means Specified; fixed. (as far as "perceived as given" makes this concept mean the opposite in some ironic sense, well that option's lost because there's no qualifiers following)
    ie. what on god's green earth does knowing who's who, per se, prove anything BUT that??
so it comes as a big surprise that no questions about the news posts were asked of the author
muffy comment: bling bling! there we go. so if it's a big surprise why no questions are being asked about the possibilities, don't you think it would be proper to inquire as to WHY? (is this OV/MG so damned cloak&dagger they can't even be polite without letting the other gaining the upper hand?)
    no it's not. i'm not a bloody conspiracy theorist and this whole thing just smells of
  1. an OTT kneejerk punishment to a recent event (before calmer heads can think *IC*)
  2. -100pr was deemed a modest *OOC* way of emphasizing TRI's displeasure

okay, so concerning points a) & b) one has to really take one's head out one's arse and discover that both points are hell of a lot more appropriate when dealing with n00bganking than when an HG&bountied pilot gets downed. (unless, of course, one is willing to place MG npc's "above the law" and attacks on HG/bountied npcs are almost akin to n00bganking?!?!?)

rant
alright. EXCUSE ME, but a number of TRI Rookies got ganked. (don't gimmie "unreg", you slimes) A n00b is a n00b is a n00b...someone freakin ganked n00bs in an official event and instead TRI washes it's hands of that affair and seeks out OV for ganking TRI officials??? hello, but doesn't the concept of '-100pr' bring to mind the words "*OOC* loss of focus"? '-100pr' is usually given -via inherent ND pvp rules coding- to those folks that engage in griefer activity, and since *OOC* means MG mindset in this instance one can only assume they don't care about NPCs but n00bs and are simply using a prior RP in motion to punish something perceived as a given in a more recent event gone awry? (or are they so callous as to assume killing an NPC is an act of grief?)

*shrug* but, in the end, it's all just "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" simply because i have no empirical evidence to LINK the coincidental timing of two events...Speaking of 'coincidence' here's another suggestion along the line Baadf00d made:
Sirhic wrote:
Oh, and one little thing MG, instead of the emperor saying "Do this or get -100 home Pol" he should really have said "Do this or be banished from Octavian space!" Woulda sounded more IC.
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Lupus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the IRC logs, it's made clear that Isk and several OPs thought that 'apologising shouldn't be such a bad thing' and when we disagreed, were told to 'be more flexible'. The OTT kneejerk reaction seems designed to pressure OV into changing what OV are. Do MG have the right to dictate how we play our game? I hope not. rant
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehe...actually, you ONLY had the right to question the *OOC* use of the "-100pr" statement and the fact that was bad policy for an *IC* NPC to use such a term. That should have been the only source of contention.

Flight Academy: political status


Instead, MG got really lazy and decided that "-100pr" was better than "hostile" (you guys/gals wouldn't take an XP hit on the 1st kill)
    that would have been an excellent stance in which to throw this RP into the EPIC category
Quote:
Perhaps today IS a good day to die!

They could have "negotiated" any rating between -20 and -40 on that scale. *G*
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