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Farming and the Pirate debate

 
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Pirates?
I don't negotiate with terrorists (besides, pod rides are 1337)
18%
 18%  [ 2 ]
It's a game of tag really. It's fun to be dealt with reasonably and the RP is okay if done right. (but if it's lame then see #1)
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
I'm a cum guzzling assmuncher! I'll pay anyone anything cause i matter farm! (plus i grief on the side in 2nd accnt)
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
I like the EU method of disabling production of commods at non-primary production centers. (that fixed farming)
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
*prays for cargo scanners and other fixes to pvp*
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Muffy opinion: /give is soooooo ghey.
27%
 27%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 11

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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 6:16 pm    Post subject: Farming and the Pirate debate Reply with quote

Brackish (pro-pirate anti-farmer) wrote:
I was here before PoD. I did not matter farm, nor did I rely on cash from a second account. I tried to make a living off piracy, and found out very quickly that it isn't possible if you plan to carry a bounty. Eventually, you get to a point where nearly everyone refuses to pay you, because they have the money from matt farming to deflect any harm you could do to them. This point became painfully clear when a guy hauling 100ish million in Instigators crashed into a petal on purpose so I couldn't "pad my stats." Afterwards, he F4d me and let me know that he would easily make the cash up in mat farms, but he was happy with the fact that he didn't support my "griefer gameplay." I had asked for only 5 mill from him, a sum I considered extremely reasonable given the circumstances.

Thats where the -PR problem comes in. If I die, I will lose 6 mill. With an average PoD of 300k to the fairly light tows you see near GBS, I would have to successfully pirate 20 people between each of my deaths to break even. Anyone who has carried a bounty can attest to the fact that Gankfleets will form. You will likely only even see 4 or 5 tows before the fleet forces you to log somewhere. If I really wanted to play a pirate, I would almost be forced to fund it from a second account.

Piracy as a method of game play is hurt very badly because of the economy. We cannot just hop in our tows and expect to get in on a farm, and our targets that do farm can easily ignore us. Unless we are being funded by other matt farmers/second accounts, pirates have no real chance to succeed.
Kami (Anti-Pirate/Farmer) wrote:
Pirates will never get paid so long as targets have the means to make it up faster than they lose it. Why would anyone want to encourage a pirate by paying him? It's a game. People would just as soon not pay and quit.

It's like a bully. You give him what he wants once, he will keep coming back. If this weren't a pay game, the penalties would be a lot higher or non-existent. In JG, pirates can be totally evil and then dock with a station and go to bed. Have you any idea how ludicrous that is? We need pirate stations, which are almost here, at least in the form of PoS. I seriously doubt all the pirates will go to them instead of faction stations, but oh well. Better yet, we need a pirate faction, or tag.


I didn't bother quoting anyone else from that fucking whine fest because the morons forgot that all the freakin pvpers are only interested in one thing: kill stats. (if you think they love to RP a pirate then yer smoking crack.)
    of course, they like the IDEA of being a pirate, but not actually the ho-hum logistics of actually RP'ing a decent pirate -- hint: calling yourself "BlackBeard" and yelling "PoD!! PoD!!" isn't up to snuff i'm afraid. Besides, who would want to prey on non-pvpers who invariably go *OOC* on you after waiting hours to pounce on a few scattered targets when you could fight squad wars? Not to mention the idiocy of an Escort career when you could fight squad wars? (and both points don't even begin to deal with the mosaic of NAPs everyone has)
I believe, in the end, it's all about how well someone RPs a role and not what role they play. For myself i have more respect for Rollio than i ever did folks like Lytefoot, Greenfleas and a host of other lesser lights/flames.

*shrug*

Anyways, see my poll option. says it all.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaadF00d wrote:
Here's EP2 and now - reality. Pirates are institutionalzied bullies.
We have to consider the very real possiblity that "Pirates" are anything but


The assumption all along seem so thave been that /give was the 2nd best option, that would stand in for the day until "real" pirates would get the tools they needed to operate.

The pirates - and their supportes - in fact have filled the board with heartfelt pleas - detailing how utterly dull cargo hauling is (to them) if theres no risk of immanent piracy, and theyre making the best of a hacked in feature to ensure that cargo pilots do not find their lives overly boring.

Right.

We now - with the advent of piracy tools - have instead to contend with the very real possiblity that Pirates are not pirates because they want the money. Are not pirates because they enjoy the roleplay aspect, and get satisfaction from increasing the excitement levels of cargo pilots. but instead - very likley instead - that they are bullies - the sort of individual that preys on defenseless targets for any number of reasons - probably simply because they can. Quite frankly the whole piracy thing stinks of the schoolground and the big kid taking the little kids lunch money, and i'm not sure why I'm expected to find this fun - the fact that people like to hurt other people whenever they have the opportunity.

Nonetheless, piracy is certainly NOT about making money. 250K pods are not the quickest way to increase ones pocket book, epsecially when uninsured. Pirates who've i've checked on JOSSH have an average life between rips of maybe 5 hours - a damn sight longer than traditional PvP pilots who seem to average closer to 3 hours between deaths. Is this because Pirates are better PvPers than PvPers? Or because their targets put up less of a struggle?

These so called pirates never wanted, and still dont want "piracy tools". They dont want the ability to steal - they want victims, and pirate tools take away their excuses to pad their stats, take away their sham of a RP and will show them for what they are.
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Zeshin
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, I just _had_ to vote for the third option. As Wyx said once on the OV internal forums - "Jumpgate is far too inbred".

[Almost Off Topic]
Was following a discussion on some Natural Selection forums concerning the use of Exploits. In this context, the exploit was players jumping in a certain way are able to move 50-200% faster than normal - so called Bunny-Hopping. The devs recently unveiled they would "deal with bunny-hopping" and the debate started.

Basicly, the pro-bhop players had mastered the exploit and could roam around the playing field without being touched by the enemy side. They defined the exploit as a skill because anyone could do it if they took the time to learn it, thus no unfair advantage to anyone.

The anti-bhop (including the devs) say that bhop do give an unfair advantage because it screws up the carefully constructed balance of the game. They also say that the point of the game is team play, and that players using the exploit are usualy not very intrested in team play but more "Ramboing" and shooting anything in sight, messing up abushes, tactics, resources and so on.

Then I read a post where the writer used the term "exploiter vs player", and it hit me - with that definition he had left the scope of that one game.

[b]Anywhere you go, any game you play, there will always be those exploiting loopholes in the game mechanics.[b]

[On Topic]
The third option combines the general exploitness behaviour and the inbreeding we're facing in Jumpgate - Some exploiter chose to play on both fields, just so he can exploit more.

In a way you have to acknowledge the effort he puts into exploiting - I'm sure he has a lot of fun (aka single player). Although one can only imagine how much fun everyone would have had if he had put the same effort into archiving the same thing using actual game mechanics and working together as a team (aka multi player)...
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeshin wrote:
I'm sorry, I just had to vote for the third option. As Wyx said once on the OV internal forums - "Jumpgate is far too inbred".

The third option combines the general exploitness behaviour and the inbreeding we're facing in Jumpgate - Some exploiter chose to play on both fields, just so he can exploit more.

In a way you have to acknowledge the effort he puts into exploiting - I'm sure he has a lot of fun (aka single player). Although one can only imagine how much fun everyone would have had if the exploiter had put the same effort into achieving the same ends using means the community felt was honourable (even playing the bad guy with honour is possible)

offtopic
Was following a discussion on some Natural Selection forums concerning the use of Exploits. In this context, the exploit was players jumping in a certain way are able to move 50-200% faster than normal - so called Bunny-Hopping. The devs recently unveiled they would "deal with bunny-hopping" and the debate started.

Basicly, the pro-bhop players had mastered the exploit and could roam around the playing field without being touched by the enemy side. They defined the exploit as a skill because anyone could do it if they took the time to learn it, thus no unfair advantage to anyone.

The anti-bhop (including the devs) say that bhop do give an unfair advantage because it screws up the carefully constructed balance of the game. They also say that the point of the game is team play, and that players using the exploit are usualy not very intrested in team play but more "Ramboing" and shooting anything in sight, messing up abushes, tactics, resources and so on.

Then I read a post where the writer used the term "exploiter vs player", and it hit me - with that definition he had left the scope of that one game.

ontopic
Anywhere you go, any game you play, there will always be those exploiting loopholes in the game mechanics.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just realized the perfect analogy for farming: people who use "Napster" p2p proggies to download stuff and essentially rip off the RIAA get the same giggly feeling.

*shrug*

I'm sure it's "fun" cause i do it myself. There IS no way to ever stop it by cajoling the community. there's no other way to stop it unless the RIAA gets off it's butt and coops the entire thing...i mean, how many of the public would jump at the chance to download pristine DVD quality stuff from official sources? I'm sure the official sources would attempt to rip everyone off and it'll fail horribly. lol.

Personally, i couldn't care less about farmers/quakers the same as i couldn't care less about people who civrip them on principle. (actually, i have more respect for the latter because at least it's about civripping to suit RP instead of the other way around)
    too bad the latter is doomed to poverty compared to the exploiters
*sigh* i'm all for banning griefers, but i hardly consider it fair to ban people merely exploiting farming/quaking when it's not the community's fault but the developers cheap, lazy work ethic. (i mean, HELL! Even Derek Smart's game "works")
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

offtopic
Fetch wrote:
I flew an unknown account "Brackish,"

ah yes, it all becomes clear now. Brackish was Fetch's "pirate account"...of course, i'm assuming "Fetch" is also a pvp account of some farmer. most likely Ridgeway or some other loudmouth in ISU squadron. (thanks so much fetch, since your "RP" allowed me to drill this whole piracy/farming whine full of holes *OOC*ly. much luff, tool)
[url=]Crossreference (Piracy FAQ)[/url]

ontopic
CptMorgan wrote:
<STANDARD CAREBEAR RANT>
THE ONLY REASON YOU SCUM DON'T WANT CARGO BOMBS IS SO THAT IT IS EASIER FOR YOU TO GRIEF ME AND FORCE YOUR [unpleasant] RP ON ME AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY WORK AND YOU CAN JUST STEAL ALL MY HARD EARNED FARM CREDITS. WHY DON'T YOU GO [visit] EMMA FOR A WHILE AND LEAVE ME ALONE YOU [meanies]!
</RANT>

*Muffy checks humor at the door to this thread. notes thread's title. stares at "joke" and sees the truth.*
Sure yer joking, and i'm taking this too seriously...anyways, thanks ever so for your example no matter how flippant it was. serves my purpose.
Crossreference (bombs, give & burglar)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DP_Raiderr wrote:
...Instead it seems that they are working towards their own goal of how they think JG would be fun...
GruenerDaumen wrote:
As you announced, this is exactly what you would do if you were a tester. You said you would "fight for the rights of the bad guys", but I can't see why you think this is neccessary. Those ideas you mention (no /home, take out /give) are just that: ideas, and as far as I know, players of all playing styles were asked to give their opinion on those ideas. Do you actually believe that those testers think "I'm a trader/fighter/whatever, so I'll make sure that ep2 will only be good for my playing style"?

In another post you say that you're glad "someone is fighting for you". I really have a problem with the terms you use and the way of thinking that this implies. You seem to think that everyone else who doesn't play the game the way you do is automatically opposed to you not only in an IC sense, but also when it comes to your "rights" as a player (btw I wonder what those rights you would like to fight for are - are there any special rights that you have or don't have as a pirate player? I thought we all had the same rights...). The fact that some of the testers are non-PvPers does not mean they will do everything to ruin ep2 for you.

I do believe in common sense and I think that MG are wise enough to choose their testers carefully. I expect MG to be able to recognise people who really don't see the wider scale of what ep2 can do for the community as a whole, and to reject those people as testers. I guess that might also be the reason for MG to turn down your offer to help them test ep2.

I wish people would not look at JG in this way, it is a game after all. We do fight ingame for madeup reasons that suit our playing style, but there is no need to fight for one's rights as a player. The community does not consist of deadly enemies, it consists of people that play a game together.


That's why i like quoting people. Never had a real flair with words, but i at least can recognize such in others. (just to add a comment, i think alot of "life begins at lvl26" folk believe that noone understands them and you have to be one to know one)
    this somehow lends itself to the inflexibility. do you notice the lvl26 fighter has been the premier fighter craft? notice also that /give and anything else connected with the hardcore pvp elites is defended like wolverines in their lair? Complete inflexibility, in fact, going all the way into offense. because, everyone knows if yer forechecking, it's kinda hard for the other side to score a goal on your goaltender.
That's why i think "sabre-rattling' is a full time hobby for some of these folk. (i believe they cut their teeth in squad hissyfits about who's cheating/etc...then move on to flame anyone who actually questions their system on merits instead of politics)

And you wonder why they even START threads complaining about potential nerfs to their "way of life" as though anything removed will be impossible to adapt to and ruin their "fun" (just look at the hysterics surrounding the call to replace /give with the long awaited piracy tools)
    don't you think it strange that pirate careers will actually become profitable? And they don't want bombs to kill with one shot, etc. doesn't this sound like they don't like the unknown risks involved?
Quote:
Deception is the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one's been doing from the moment they saw us. Now he has to calculate what he can't see ...Or fear what he doesn't know

I believe that PoD is (hopefully, was) a safe, overt and blatantly easy way to exploit the nonconsentual pvp coding we have in JumpGate. (it shoves all the unknowns onto the traders with zero benefit to them, though pirates shared the risks)

The Piracy Tools replacing the /give command will mean that costs/benefits will be shared equally. (the benefit of the trader is that all pirates will fear the unknown about all traders, because all traders will be assumed to carry at least one bomb)
    and the one's that refuse to were never nonconsentual in regards to dealing with pirates in the first place.
I believe people like Raiderr refuse to imagine in the slightest how they might adapt and continue on as before. (even without /give there will be TRADE. and protection rackets were ever the staple of pirates, regardless of how they hype PoD usefulness; ignoring "MC farming 2nd accounts" as offtopic even if totally relevant it would sidetrack this just a tad)

And what of the potential profits of just one single instigator stolen? That's just the low end. Does anyone think people like Raiderr ignore these things? of course not, they just want both options. Why? Because /give (and PoD) is the devil they know. A devil they know to be reliable with the cards stacked against their prey. (I'd call that the same as wanting "MC farming" to be around forever.)
    PoD is just an exploit as MC farming is. Why DO we call "farming" an exploit in the first place. isn't it just doing what the economy was intended because they CAN? same diff'
Except, now we have a replacement for /give and they still want the exploit? What does that make them? Stressed out? (playing martyr/semantic games) or Rational? (debating and criticizing the big picture)
hm
Mark Twain Notebook (1894) wrote:
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fetch isn't Ridgeway ;).

EDIT: The problem I see ocurring is that stealing will have limits placed on it. Pirates most of the time will be stealing piddling amounts from tows carrying cheap commods, and then they hit the jackpot and manage to steal an insti. Tow pilots complains and calls it griefing, MG tell the pirates that they can only pirate from small commod tows. This damages the whole pirating RP, and means that intelligent pirates (IE those who examine individual targets to get rich pickings) are punished.
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Kami
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:dunce: Muffy sowwy he nuked yer post (hit "edit" instead of "quote" and didn't notice)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

offtopic
Kami wrote:
As for Ridgeway, he's somebody's second account. I can guarantee that.

well, Ridgeway is Aethemos on EU server (he posted identical threads on both servers using both idents. pretty stupid operational security if you ask me)
    lemmie check his registration dates on both pilots. i assumed ridgeway was the original, but Kami made me doubt
Ridgeway: Pilot Account activated 102.1.3.9:20.14
-Aethemos: no pilot by any name remotely similar (forum register: 04-03-2002)

As you can see, i guessed right about -Aethemos being a dummy account for Ridgeway, but doing multiple personality disorder detective work is like peeling an onion, at some point you're left with nothing in yer hand but peels. (we do know Ridgeway/-Aethemos speaks fluent deutsche)
    also leading me to wonder if Nicator assumes Fetch is not Ridgeway, unless he's seen both fly together...Of course, my first impression is that Nicator is Fetch or a close friend of someone who is. (god forbid if Nic is actually Ridge. yick)
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Kami
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flying together doesn't mean much these days.

The way some of these squads are run is a whole bunch of accounts and the rest play musical ships, as needed.

Having 2nd, 3rd, and so forth accounts actually demeans the quality of the game in a lot of ways, but ND knows that, and is more interested in the money.

E&B uses a meta account to control all the characters under it.

Eve will as well, with the added restriction that only 1 of those accounts can be raising a skill at any one time, which is done in real time. My main concern with Eve, is their lack of community as the game goes live. It's already starting to decend. I guess the trick there will be to hook up with "better" people and terrorize them back :) I full well intend to be a PvPer in Eve.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Bacci_Galu (smug mode) wrote:
Do not confuse exploitation with enterprise. How many of you would turn down a high paying executive position in some large corporate conglomerate? How many of you would give up your jobs right now? Because whether you choose to believe it or not, somebody, somewhere is being exploited for your benfit.

How many of you would turn down a multi-million dollar lottery ticket? You say that isn't exploitation? Do you know who the majority of ticket buyers are? Poeple who cannot afford to play.

This is my ten dollars a month, and I'll use it how I wish. If you don't like to farm, then don't farm. I won't call you lazy, and you don't call me an exploiter. We all have to take responsibilty for our actions. Be it farming, ripping, griefing, fluxing, spying, being lame, being righteous, being European (heh...couldn't resist) whatever we do, we'll probably piss someone off. Well, then, we can try to settle the matter. If you decided to down the farmer, well, you're perpetuating the cycle because now the farmer must farm more to cover his losses. By consciously perpetuating the cycle, that makes you a hypocrite. But if I am perpetually downed for farming, and I continue to farm to cover my expenses, then I am consciously perpetuating civ-ripping and I am the hypocrite. So there we are. You do what you feel is right, and I do what I feel is right. Perhaps we'll compromise, perhaps we won't. THAT is what this game is about. That is why I pay my ten bucks a month.
(defensive wynar mode) wrote:
If JG doesn't survive and grow and if farming is as detrimental to the game, then why hasn't it been fixed? If JG doesn't survive and grow, then it's because Themis/Net Devil simply do not give a rat's furry butt flap. All's we hear is matfarming hurts. It hurts because of matfarming. Civ-ripping happens because of matfarming. The flux are pink because of mat farming. Yet I have not yet seen anyone actually give a data driven reason why mat farming is ruining JG. I will agree that it is an unrealistic aspect of acquiring wealth...but like I said before, if it were that big a deal, then someone with some pull or programming expertise would have fixed it by now. It's not like this just popped up. I hear about all the other things that were fixed, nixed or nerfed...why not mat farms? If you don't like it, don't do it. People aren't leaving because of mat farms. Show me where sombody has posted, "These damn mat farms! I can't take it anymore!" No. You see, "game play is boring," or "I'm tired of all the flaming, lameness, griefing, ripping, complaining, lack of EP2..." Tell me what the immediate impact is on the average player and I'll consider it. Show me the data. You may change my mind. If your reasoning is not data driven, then it's just opinion, conjecture and speculation. Which is fine, but not convincing. If this is all going away when EP2 comes out (soon [tm]) then what's the fuss about?
(foot in mouth) wrote:
Truthfully, I would like to see more variety in the demand for different comods. Leave farming, but change up the commod. Kinda like trying to find the hot stock in the RL market. There's little or no reward for hauling (cash or exp) and it's the same old comods over and over. Really, I farm cause it's something to do.
not And there you have it, folks. the high minded shenanigans by exploiters first starts with "but it's the way 'it' is" turns into "what's ND is good and what's good is ND" but ends up as "if it changes the old 'it' better stay too!"
lmao
QUOTELAND wrote:
'A man cannot eat his cake and have it still' - J. Davies, 'Scourge of Folly no 271' (1611)

The general meaning is that one cannot enjoy the advantages of two mutually incompatible situations.

Crossreference UBERreference Anothereference


Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assure you I'm not Fetch or Ridgeway ;). I just have a fairly reasonable knowledge of Ridge/Aethemos' many, many second accounts. If Fetch is a second account (He is Fetch, Camen, and Brackish), then there are some fairly serious differences between the way they post, their OOC descriptions of life events, the languages they speak, where they live, etc :-). Aethemos has a huge trail of second accounts, but he's never been _that_ good at disguising them.
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Kami
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
I assure you I'm not Fetch or Ridgeway ;). I just have a fairly reasonable knowledge of Ridge/Aethemos' many, many second accounts. If Fetch is a second account (He is Fetch, Camen, and Brackish), then there are some fairly serious differences between the way they post, their OOC descriptions of life events, the languages they speak, where they live, etc :-). Aethemos has a huge trail of second accounts, but he's never been _that_ good at disguising them.


Yeah well, case in point is Roy and who-its G... can't remember, lol.

The whole idea of second accounts, not to mention 3rd, 4th and 5th is....annoying to me? Especially in a game that is more arcade than not.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmao dude! i LIKE nicator's sense of humor!
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put it this way, I'd put money on it ;). I've also duelled both of them, and they're different fighters.
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