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I feel like flaming some of these guys...

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Test Pilot
Test Pilot

Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 566
Location: The sticks!

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:39 pm    Post subject: I feel like flaming some of these guys... Reply with quote

To summarize a post on ND:

Pat: Wine!!! Where is my wine?!? I want it now!!! No...Not that!!! Wine!!!
G.R: Ahh, but wine is really not being pressed in game... Just on the boards.
Nohbody: *yawn* I'm tired, think I'll go to sleep.
Ix: Ataboy Pat!!!
Das: Why is everyone so serious - it is only a game?
Yokom: I are überflamormasta!!! You will bow down when I scorch you!!!
HiTekHick: Muffitus is spreading! insane
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and WTF is with the new biomass thingie whatsit? I hear Lytefoot waxing loquatious about how money is easy to make and i stop there and head for the shower.
    what i mean to say is WTF is this BS about sol core? I'm assuming lytefoot is being a fag again and that one only needs one unit of ice to exploit the bug at the custom producer at hyperial...there's at least 3 ice roids per sector, every sector.
He does have a point, but his conclusions are always off; He's right that the act of making money is meaningless beyond profit for the sake of profit, but he's dead wrong about his conclusion that "it is good"

I don't want making money to be hard for hard's sake...I want the act of making money to make sense beyond churning, and what we have even with all the tweaks is still a one-sided supply economy with no demand. (for illustration i'll quote a bit of lytefoot and explain the lack of demand)
Lytefoot wrote:
If you don't have a lot it is because A. you haven't tried or B. you spend it reequipping as fast as you make it. If you focus on hauling and not fluxing or fighting you won't die nearly as much and your net worth will go up, period, end of story.

Lytefoot is annoying because he loves to tell grandma's how to suck eggs...what he does perfectly is naively show what's wrong with the system. He personifies the rot at the core, though innocently enough. ("wisom from the mouth of babes")
The Point: Why don't traders (A.) make their money off hauling/mining stuff that create the gear that the combat-jockeys (B.) burn through! (that's demand/supply)
    It's a tricky issue that will challenge NetDevil to use brains when creating such a system...I'm sure they've tossed it in the bin with "oh well, it's too easy to manipulate and would lead to people purchase/selling stuff just to pump up price"

    Which is complete laziness on their part. Has been since day one...[sarcasm=obvious]I'm sure the POS in EP2 will magically poof this supply/demand to oblivion.[/sarcasm]
you know what? i think netdevil made a system they CAN track. (ie. they can probably follow the birth and death of everything with a price tag) With that one can pretty much tell what's popular and to what SCALE is such a thing popular relative to such things as daily ore dumps all the way to matter farming.
3rd party tracking example & ingame symptoms of SCALE
There's a few things we need to clarify first.
  1. inflation i'm assuming is stupid for a game. It's like saying that unemployment would help the game engine...If inflation gets coded, then you'd need wage hikes for the mission bonuses to keep pace otherwise your average n00b will get raped.
  2. what we need instead of stupidity is something along the lines of a supply/demand model that focuses on giving profit to hauling high mass, long distance routes that bring the commods needed to build popular items
  3. what we also need is a production cycle that puts the priority on the popular items. (and a pricing system that makes economy class items a smart buy and the premium items a money sink -- but not stupid expensive like the instigator. gods! Talk about the best rationale for "churning" ever. bah!)
  4. what we also need is an injection/infusion system that bridges the gap between dumped ore and production needs. (which means taking another look at what commods get produced where in what ratio. there's enough commods that aren't produced via ore refinement to ensure there's exclusive production centers to add rarity)
  5. in the end you notice that the current system is just a house of cards. A system that disconnects mining, hauling, and the combat-jockey's pocketbook...The effort needed that would do this EFFECTIVELY is centered on this ability to track dumped ore and compare it to popular item sales.
  6. The ONLY way we're going to have a union between miners, haulers and pvpers is to create a believable *IC justification* for commod infusion/injection, because right now the most ridiculous thing about the game is the arbitrary and completely stupid injection/decay cycle they have in place which just CHURNS.
  7. it's no wonder folks like Lytefoot believe in the BS they spout -- it's 'cause this game churns and calls itself "anti-closed system"...[irony=tragic]an open system in reality. an analogy would be 'The China Syndrome'[/irony]
Here's an example: Say we take the "Sport Plus PP" which everyone can agree on is damned popular. say 300 throttle-jockeys go through 5 each per day, that would mean 1500 needs to be produced at Solrain stations. (notice how object tracking from birth to death is so important for ND to have order for this suggestion to get off the ground we'd need accurate data to get an "average" demand based on the sales over months)
    assuming that if we set up the system correctly, more population = more miners, haulers along with the combat jockeys
Since i don't know how much indium, uranium, fuel cells and matter convertors are destroyed in the creation of Sport Plus' i'm going to just assume that this is the one thing NetDevil leaves intact from the old system, and that they had some rationale for such.
    a case of occam's razor
The above ingredients all come from *cough*churning*cough* so if we remove the old system and depend on the current ore refinement we'd have chaos. It's madness trying to guess at the numbers of miners dumping ore, but what i can with absolute certainty say i know that asteroids refresh at 2 units per hour. as there are always a small, medium and large roid of each rare type in every sector (except one that i know of in all of quantar space; and a few with more)...assuming mining becomes essential (ie. a feeling of contribution to the community i'm assuming is the point to playing a fucking MMOG) then we'll have blue tinged roids all over all the time (assuming most honorable players will leave the small ones for the n00bs) 6 units per hour per sector being mined in regulated space (assuming any slack is taken up by neutral sector miners and those who know where the rich sectors are). That gives us about 500 units of each rare roid per hour in bulk.
  1. now since we can't boost the refinement ratio to match production needs...we'll want to increase the percentage to a reasonable level (thus increasing the price of ore and the mass too -- proven to be linked)
  2. after that mining ore might become profitable compared to PURE roid mining (this is a rather touchy subject...personally, i'd prefer it if NetDevil had created the "pure" roids to be unusually potent in a certain ore -- not commod!
  3. since this whole suggestion is based on the need for ND to track stuff, i'm assuming they'll be able to code in a system that would make up the difference between refined ore and production needs by figuring out a constant that would indicate how much infusion/injection of commods to make at each station BASED ON DAILY ORE DUMPS
Now off we go with the Haulers, and Baadf00d has stated time and time again (along with predecessors Bhruic and a host of others) that mass should be a prime indicator of profit and not the stupid system of "matter farming" we have still. The other indicator needs to be demand...and a demand based not on the current "lack of supply = demand" idiocy, but on what the production facilities make the most of BECAUSE it's popular with the one's who go through gear like cotton candy.
    it should be such that NetDevil can tune infusions/injections to ore refinement to match the tuning of commod supply to match the tuning of pilot gear demands BASED on past transaction records i'm assuming ND has coded in the past.
Otherwise, if ND can't track items from birth to death, they're soooooooo screwed. How long before their house of cards collapses? This might be a niche market game, but WTFS there's more players who adored Allegience and Privateer than Microsoft softpedals as their excuse for the low interest in sci-fi MMOGs and the hype about fantasy MMOGs.

You'll hear the crack of necks as ND sees the market share SWG's, EvE and E&B pull and get a collective whiplash as they realize "churning" does not equal 'Community' (and a community is based on a feeling of contribution to a persistent universe and not a FUCKING GERBIL WHEEL THREE RING CIRCUS)
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