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Pep Talk (re-hijacked)

 
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Pep Talk (re-hijacked) Reply with quote

Archbishop wrote:
Alina I can understand your frustration. You've had a "bad day". Take a couple days off, make a new plan on paper for what YOU want to accomplish, then log back on and put your plan into action.

We've all had bad days. During the Venal Civil War I lost three Scorpions in 90 minutes. In the CFS War I lost so many ships I lost count and alot of skillpoints because I'd clone and forget to get a new one.

I've also been podded with Cruiser BPO's in my hold and lost them before the days of "Secure Cans". I think Joker's still have em!

Eve is what you make it. There will always be someone with more money, more combat skill, a bigger ship, more friends, more anything then you. What are you going to do about it? Quit in disgust or find your niche and embrace it?

I've played Eve since early beta yet if you pull me up you'll see I'm a seven month old character. I left for a couple months (health issues - cancer) and returned with a brand new character just to join the corp I'm in now (old guy was Caldari - no good in PIE). Talk about a handicap. Yet rather then quit in disgust because I couldn't "swim" with the "I've got 10m skillpoints in gunnery" crowd I found my own "niche" in combat and industry. I decided this is what I want and I am going to get it.

The point is I found a niche and embraced it. You can do the same thing. What do YOU want out of Eve? What do YOU want to achieve? Make your list then live your list.

Bad days will come and go but so will the good ones. Good ones that outshine any "twentyfour hours of hell". Take it from someone who has lost it all more than a few times and bounced back. Its a fight worth fighting and a life in Eve worth living.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:36 pm    Post subject: Devil's Advocate Reply with quote



Sleazy Cabbie wrote:
I take a different view of the whole corp war thing.

War is a waste of resources, but it can be fun too, the shortcomings of pvp in Eve is that someone can shove it down your throat.

To me, there are times I want to fight, and times I want to chill, but any band of pr1cks can come along and force you to fight just by being in a corp.

I don't really understand the need to drag people into pvp kicking and screaming. If all of 0.0 were as it is now, and all of .1 to 1.0 were patrolled by concord, with no corp wars, everybody would still be able to do what they wanted.

You want to pvp, go to 0.0. But no, instead of going there, you want to come to empire to kill miners and producers.

Open up the map and look at "ships killed in the past 24 hours" you see the whole inner sphere is blood red, while 0.0 is calm.

The premise of the game is a lie.

0.0 is supposed to be a warzone but it's a heavily patrolled and policed. 1.0 is supposed to be safe, but any band of pirates can just declare your corp and pirate you that way. Low sec is supposed to be more secure than 0.0 but its the most dangerous area of the game.

The way I see it right now, Eve is %100 pvp, there is no "carebear area." The killers and gankers have zero risk. Even if you lose your ship, it's mostly insured, and you can hunt rats making money while looking for victims.

The miners and producers have ALL the risks. Try hauling a load of goods worth a few hundred mil through lowsec, you need a big pair of brass balls to risk a few hundred million isk.

Try shelling out a billion credits of your own money to buy a BPO, it will make you sh*t a brick.

Meanwhile any 2 bit n00b with 250k SP can grab a Kestrel and make a few hundred thousand isk per hour doing hunting and space piracy.

THAT is the reality of Eve, not the lie everyone perpetuates that it takes some kind of balls to pvp, and all carebears are sitting safe and warm making money, but hey believe what you want.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the ability of n00bs to compete with veterans...
lythos miralbar wrote:
The beauty of eve is that this old players vs new players isnt really an issue IMHO. It is in most online games but much less so than eve.

In terms of skill points, you can catch up in specific areas, but not in everything. After all there are only so many skills that effect things when flying an intercepter for example.

Train them to lvl 4 or lvl5 where needed and you'll be as good as a vet in an intercepter. Of course the vet might also be able to fly assault frigs, Heavy assaults, have uber EW skills, all the manufacturng skills etc etc.. but you will be as good as them in one area.

The skill system in eve also means that a new player will advance faster than an older player, so you'll improve more in your first 6 months than you will in your next 6 months.

This is because of the way the skills have ranks, meaning the really tasty stuff takes alot longer to train than the basic stuff per lever. And you'll be training the basics first meaning you'll advance quicker to start with.

Basics are things like, the "gunnery", "missile launcher opperation", "navigation", "electronics", "engineering", "high speed manovering" skills. Those that will effect any ship you fly.

And of course you should train learning skills and advanced learning skills as soon as possible.

In terms of actual player experience, that matters more than skills (Unless your comparing a 2 week old with an 18 month old but thats daft).

Skills let you do things and use new modules.. they enhance your characters abilites. Its what you do with them that count.

For every situation there is a counter, and its a players experience that lets someone recoginse that counter, then its the skill points that let them use it.

This is an extreme example, but Give a 4 month old a blackbird and 5 named amar racial jammers plus a 7.5 km scrambler. Then stick him 2km from a 18 month old in a gank geddon with no drones, nos, web or tank..

tell that 4 mnth old to just orbit at 2km and providing he doesnt run out ammo that geddon is going down....

That is extreme and it is normally more subtle than that but i guess it made the point.
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, now I remember why I left eve to go an play WoW.

I mean, *other* than the fact that WoW has compelling quests that arnt all duplicates of each other.

Does EVE have anything even vaguely approaching compelling PvE content yet?
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*snicker* ditto

Only reason i like the game cause it's a SCI-FI mmog. At least it's got more compelling pve than jumpgate, ffs.
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaadF00d wrote:
Ah, now I remember why I left eve to go an play WoW.

I mean, *other* than the fact that WoW has compelling quests that arnt all duplicates of each other.

Does EVE have anything even vaguely approaching compelling PvE content yet?


I dunno about that f00d

I bailed on WOW becaue it bored the fuck out of me.

As for quests, they added a shit tonne of new ones. you still repeat a few, but no matter. They don't take 5 hours to complete. And really, WOW quests aren't that much different. "Hero, recent _______ atacks have grown stronger I need you to go to the _______________ Fortress and kill _____________. Bring back their __________ to show me you have completed the task"

Nearly every quest follows that template.

As for compelling PvE, it's hard to say, complexes are dungeons. There are multilevel agent missions taking place in 'instances'.


In the end MMORPGs are all the same. The point is to find a flavour you like
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Sir Bhurak on this one.

I got board after killing my billionth trogg. The trick is to find an MMORPG that you can have fun in. I personally like variety so that's why I play EVE.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmm, I dont know about that. The mechanics of questing, perforce, have to stay the same. The game, eve or Wow, is, in its PvE side, about killing mobs.

Mechanically there are only so many variants of "go forth and kill XXX and bring back YY units of ZZ from their smoking corpses" that you can design.

The difference really is in the actual lead in to the quests.

WoW has a compelling reason to go and kill the XXX to get YY of ZZ. If you bother to read the quest description. Each quest you do in WoW is a discovery of the backstory. Why these gnomes are here, and why they are fighting those troggs there. Its like reading a book.

EVE on the other hand... mechanically the quests are the same. Delivery or kill. Whats lacking is any sort of individuality. There *was* no sense of history in the missions. Each quest completed doesnt really paint a part of the whole story of the world.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the gap between the "storyline" missions and the "regular" stuff in eve-online is ridiculously under-developed. Learning about each race's pecularities is limited to just those few "storyline" missions.

you know, when eve was being heavily promoted you were given the impression that you'd move from one storyline agent to the next, graduating to learn more of the storyline and be immersed more in the backstory. (i'm not talking about "events" put on by GMs, which i find about as uplifting as Margaret Thatcher's skirt)
    You get one single storyline agent. period. The other "exodus" improvement i've not tried, but i assume they really bolloxed it up and their usage of "storyline agent" as a name for this new agent type is basically the marketing department deliberately misbranding something to appear to be something promised, but isn't.
It's not just that, it's the regular missions as well. The fact that the only artist across the entire universe uses only GARBAGE as a medium and the guy is so rich as to have multiple active clones, this bugged me beyond belief - pardon the pun. It was like playing an unfinished beta-version where the developers figured that since everyone bitched about "balance" (mostly) that stuff like meaningful "fluff" was too trivial to worry about.

isn't it sad that so many things in Eve (and JG) are so fucking mickeymouse, and then you get a pvp "balance" issue that's so complex even the developers don't know whether they're coming or going.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimately the the artist who uses garbage is a metaphor for mmorpg designers.


TAke it, recombine it, it may look pretty but it's still garbage.


MMORPG's as a whole are stuck in a rut and I can't see any hope of a change soon
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Creating good scripted story content is very very hard. Generally to create anything any good it needs to be led by GM's and that's where a lot of MMORPGs run into problems in that area.

Nobody wants to bite the bullet and hire a ton of GM's to do storyline type events. Therefore scripted quests that have little to no real value are the medium of the day.

Why create something origional when crude immitiations of what's already popular will sell faster and more reliably?

MMORPG's are a great example of consumerism at it's finiest. Why make an origional product when someone's already done the inventing for a product that already sells reliably?

Nobody is going to create anything origional until there is incentive to do so or it can be proven it will sell. The risk isn't worth the effort to most large companies that have a bottom line to keep down. Origionality costs more money and man hours to create then a crude immitation of what's already popular.

An anaology to finish things off: Think of MMORPG's as peanut butter. You can get Kraft, Squirrl, No name, and some other brands. They all have chunky, smooth, extra chunky. And in different sizes. However it's still peanut butter at the end of the day. So until someone decides to take the risk of creating something origional, we'll just have to choose the peanut butter we most enjoy.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Live DM events? I dont buy them for a moment as being necessary or desirable in a MMO.

Mostly, live events are just used as an excuse. A filler to make up for a lack of built in world content. "Dont mind the crappy NPC quests, we have these DM events that are unbalanced, badly choreographed, bugged all to hell and probably end up pissing off more players who find their limited play time interrupted than actually enjoy them." Then all the players that partake expect some uber reward.

Piss on that.

MMO quests should be repeatable by many players, and inclusive. And plannable.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with Baadf00d on whether or not "Official" sponsorship, or even knowledge, is necessary for a well-crafted storyline to be built. Personally, it's about getting decent DMs, and GOD KNOWS we've all been there. Just because you WORK for a MMOG company doesn't suddenly make you an expert at GMing, nor does "hands-on" experience teach the neophyte GM anything other than your basic high-school-clique-politics techniques.

and if you've never played a D&D or whatever PnP RPG you're missing out on realizing how little effort is required to get one up and running and having a "passable" time of it. By "effort" i mean 'creative writing' skills and such don't seem to be much of an issue.

And that is the problem. You can start a snowball rolling event and it'll grow into an icy boulder, but at the end of the day would you rather have StarWarsEp3 or LOTR-returnoftheking?

The point is being able to write a storyline that has enough dynamic to it to not only survive varying shades of dislike/apathy/like from mmog denizens, but seem to grow from such reactions into a "mmog" suitable story...most of what i've seen have been static and fold quite quickly when faced with decent *IC* and *OOC* counter-arguments (or else become dogmatic and whiny)
    or, they depend on "GM" participation or whatever...which is i think what Razage is conceptualizing. Personally, if i ever got to that point i'd pick up a good book about storytelling
I recommend Orson Scott Card's "Characters & Viewpoint - Elements of fiction writing"
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretic wrote:
i agree with Baadf00d on whether or not "Official" sponsorship, or even knowledge, is necessary for a well-crafted storyline to be built. Personally, it's about getting decent DMs, and GOD KNOWS we've all been there. Just because you WORK for a MMOG company doesn't suddenly make you an expert at GMing, nor does "hands-on" experience teach the neophyte GM anything other than your basic high-school-clique-politics techniques.


I thought that's what I was saying. Problem is most MMORPG players don't want to create their own content. They think they need approval from the devs to do anything at all. Therefore players are just going to do what they're told, this is fine. However it means that the company has to hire X number of GM's at 20 bucks an hour (Unfortrunate they would be doing it for the money so right there, more then likely it's going to be a shitty event team to begin with because they don't really care. They're there to get a pay cheque). That's really damn pricy for shit results and really when there's a bottom line, a company isn't going to care.

It's easier to satisfy the counter-strike mantality and the company can do that with the dev's they've already hired. Tweaking balance issues and such is cheaper then trying to play detective and finding out what people want out of a story line or paying GM's/DM's to run events. Now maybe I'm crazy but I gave up on any company wanting to provide RP a while ago and always try to do my own thing. Yes I know, it dosn't go anywhere and it sucks and there's no participation and it dosn't change anything, but atleast it's marginally better then nothing.

Unfortunately though if I were a company CEO and I had to look at the bottom line of an MMORPG. I would not bet on the RPers carrying my product. Counter-strike rejects, however much I may not like them, are able to be motivated and catered too. I find RPers are very timid (Myself included) and will require potentially more maitenence as customers.

I'm not saying being an RPer is a bad thing. I like it, even if it does lick balls. I know I'd be a high maitenence customer if the dev's tried to cater to me though. I also understand that interms of numbers the counter-strike type players outnumber me 3 to 1.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I thought that's what I was saying. Problem is most MMORPG players don't want to create their own content. They think they need approval from the devs to do anything at all.


I dont see that. What you are saying is you want an entirely different kind of game to an MMO.

MMOs are NOT about players creating their own content. They cannot be. Firstly is the sheer scale of the problem... WoW is split into 70 odd shards on just the american server farm. A shard being a discrete server with a set of characters that are played on it. At peak times, WoW has 200,000 online players on the american server farm at once. Thats an average of 3000 players per sever, but the busy ones can peak at 10,000 players.

(So, while Eve's big "plus" is the single shard nature of the eve universe, appreciate that its rather more simply the case that eve doesnt *need* to shard itself)

The point is, that the seperate shards mean that "content" on any particular shard cannot be significant... because significant changes to the storyline would require the shard diverge from the common shared storyline of all the other servers. Plus, if the 5000 players per sever suddenly decided to do their own thing and create content... (a) there would be a lot of it, and (b) 99% of it would be pure unadulturated shit.

The choice I think ultimately comes down to: would you prefer to curl up in front of a fire and read: (a) Lord of the Rings, or (b) some crappy Choose your own Adventure? As you can no doubt see, I am biased against the Choose your Own Adventure concept. I personally dont see any loss of satisfaction from being unable to change the ending of books I read ( or games I play). An epic storyline is no less epic because I didnt influence it myself. But, a well crafted MMO does put the player in the middle of the epic and lets the player find out the story of the epic at their own pace, in their own way.

Just without fucking it up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyone remember the old "peter jackson" choose your own adventure books? I most loved that old one that had about a 5 book series. damn damn damn, i wanna go googling...feck, nothing but LotR stuff. bugger.

hmph

ah ha! no, it was "steve jackson"...now, the series i remember was the "lone wolf" series.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: MuffyBot™ Reply with quote

nope, wasn't the lone wolf series (cause it started to suck and suck BAD)...it was "steve jackson's" "sorcery!" series. god, took me long enough to track it down. phew.
    it was the most beautiful attempt at "adventure" books i've ever seen
another source and amazon.com

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, choose your own adventure books suck, especially when compared to LotR (Although I have to admit I just can't sit through something that long. I cheated and bought the audio book.)

Anyways, I create my own content all the time. Is it "Bullshit" in the technical sense? Probably but whatever. I've always been good at "Bullshitting" anyways, hehe. I follow the games stuff too but I always thought part of MMO's is to share your own characters story as well.

And as for shards, actually content can be significant on a shard, it just won't be reported to the other shards etc... The mineral conglomorates that existed on my SWG "Shard" were an example of that. We had some of the biggest mineral conglomorates of all the shards and nobody anywhere else even knew about it. Even funnier was that because of this whenever I went to another server, mineral prices were always nearly 3 times higher then on my "shard". I'd call that a pretty significant thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, 99% of those books totally sucked donkey balls. it's those rare 1% books that really make you glad you experienced that high quality "bullshit"
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Fats wrote:
Lonewolf 66 wrote:
I am still trying to figure out my purpose or niche in this game. I like it but for the moment just for the fact that Im sure there is still lots more I can do that I dont know yet. Several professions I have tried albeit to a lesser dergree than you long timers:

Mining - was ok for a while but it got boring just pounding rock for ISK. Surely there must be a better way so I turned to......

Agent Missions - OK did about 5 - 6 of those and after the mission jumps got to 7 I was like "WTH, 7 jumps for 15,000 ISK!!" Surely there must be a better way so I turned to..........

NPC Pirate killing - I upgraded to a Kestral with 4 light missile turrets and some shield power and set off to try this avenue. WOW!!! Lots of quick money in it. Kill 4-5 5000 ISK NPC pirates and pick up the loot and head back to station and reprocess the junk and pick up some extra ISK. Rinse and repeat. In about 35-40 min I made about 200,000 ISK. Not bad but...now what? Rinse and repeat no matter what the bounty on the NPC pirate and no matter how much junk you reprocess for ISK it gets tedious. So I took a NPC hunting break. And yes...surley there must be a better way so I turned to..........

Hauling some Cargo - Not much to it. Buy low sell high. make some ISK and move to the next haul. To Slow & boring. Surley there must be a better way so I turned to........

PVP - Ahh yes PVP...didnt want to take this route so soon but while I was in a 0.6 or 0.5 zone...I cant remember which I was killing some NPC pirates and was starting to collect the cargo containers when someone came and started grave robbing my booty. I got ****ed and opened fire.....WELL Concord didnt like that!! I figured I was safe being in an asteriod belt far from any law enforcement and being in a lower zone (noob remember?)I WAS WRONG!! I got flattened in a nano second. I guess that was the end of my PVP career...and that takes me to my last day of the trial.

Im sure Im missing a whole lot of other careers that my skills can not attain in this short amount of time but then again I have no idea what they are...anyone??

Yeah I know...join a Corp. & I did but I found out I dont have the Corp kind of time. Its a good idea but not really for me.

It seems the game revolves around ISK & Skill attributes. Once you have them all then what?? What does all that ISK buy you?? More ISK I assume...but how much is enough and what can you actually do with all that ISK??

This is not a rant or a flame on the game because I actually like it but just an observation of a player who did the 14 day trial and seems a little lost in the woods and is dropping bread crumbs to find his way home but the birds have eaten them.

I'll make this short.

Eve is not a typical RPG. It's not a "who has shinier armor" beauty contest, its a living breathing universe where the players write the story.

Here money is a TOOL, you buy ships and clones and stations with it, it's CAPITAL for taking a piece of the world and making it yours.

The point of Eve is whatever you decide to make your goal, but no matter what, you can decide your own criteria for success. You could be Emperor of your own intergalactic empire, could be industrial tycoon, could be a space pirate, bounty hunter, or just some guy who hauls goods back and forth, anything you want to be.
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