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Griefing

 
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 5:25 am    Post subject: Griefing Reply with quote

This is why you DON'T mine in highly trafficked areas. It's just plain silly to expect MMOG community to be 100% free of losers.
Archbishop wrote:
Suicide attacks in 1.0 space in a case like this are obviously griefing plain and simple. This "hehehe just getting kicks" garbage sounds like some pimply immature loser getting his jollies. As I recall the "LopTop" person mentioned in the first post was also the loser who *****ed about the Tsunami victims and hoped they were in game so he could pod them. A real waste of oxygen.

I hate to suggest TomB wave his infamous nerf bat around again but in this case these griefers will force it. This is the same thing that has happened OVER AND OVER AGAIN in Eve. A system is in place for combat and some idiot comes along and exploits it somehow or finds a way around it and will in the end force CCP to do another nerf. Going all the way back to the original pirates like Setec being nerfed out of Empire we see the behavior of a few losers forcing CCP to make changes. I'm sure the "carebears whining" accusation will be made but in all honesty complaints here are COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED. This is just pathetic griefing behavior and nothing more.

Apparently these losers also have no trouble losing Kestrels to Concord. They brag about being able to create a new character with Kestrel skills at origin. So basically everyday they can go out and grief 4-5 people then just terminate their alt at bedtime, wakeup in the morning get out of their jammies and create another griefer alt, clearly pathetic.

CCP I'd encourage you to make an example of these idiots and just ban them. You've danced around the issue of griefing long enough. You've done NOTHING to get the word out that this type of behavior has consequences. The line between griefing and just doing PvP is pretty clear. It's kind of like obscenity in some ways the way a US Supreme Court justice once described it (sorry I forget which one). He said he couldn't describe it but he knows it when he sees it. Well this is a case like that. I know griefing when I see it and this is it. Make an example of these misfits and clear the air.


A famous quote from jumpgate was posted at an old old fansite, no longer in existance, "they can be the complete assholes they can't be in RL"

GM Arkanon wrote:
Hello everyone.

To set the record straight, we can and do ban players for griefplaying. Note that attacking another player is not griefplaying. But, while attacking another player is not forbidden anywhere in EVE, excessive use of disposable alts (as judged by a GM), the use of exploits or the abuse of trial accounts to grief players for your own profit without risk of retribution will not be tolerated.

We have banned players for what we deem to be griefing before and we will continue to do so. Abuse of trial accounts can and will lead to a ban on your main account(s). I hope this clears up some questions about this subject.

Quote:
If anyone fires upon someone they are not at war with, or someone who's sec rating is -5 or below (and you won't find them in 'safe' space), they become criminally flagged and ANYONE can fire upon them freely, for 15 minutes.
Quote:
Hi,

I've been around the ice belts in Jita to see at first hand what has been reported here.

Only after 10 minutes after arriving a rather obviously named 'bargekiller' arrived in his Kestral to the belt and politely asked the bardges to leave, which they did. He left to the next belt and I followed.

Again at the belt he asked the barges to leave. This time they refused and after a number of seconds he opened fire. His status on my Overview DID NOT change. It remained grey, it did not change to red. Luckly Concord were already in the belt and he is destroyed soon after.

After this a Badger Industrial from the same corp as the ex-bargekiller arrived and parked quite obviously next to jet cans that the barges were mining into (the pilot of the Badger was only 5 days old). Many of the barges pilots where complaining about this being an 'ore-thief'. Obviously the barges would not empty their holds into the cans for fear of being robbed and so stopped mining, the Badger remained and when the barge pilot had had enough he warped out to another belt. The Badger moved onto the next can and the process happened again, slowly getting rid of the barges in the belt.

This looks to be the next 'griefing' tactic once the barges have had their armor increased.
Maire Devylin wrote:
Now that is just plain stupid. I know if I shoot someone else's property in secure space that CONCORD will come along and merrily gank me for my transgression. But, if this is the case, then that is theivery plain and simple. There should be some form of consequence for that action or some form of risk involved.

I read a lot of people who say "risk vs reward" and then go on to call people carebears who mine in secure space. Well, the risk they take are ore thieves but, there is no "risk vs reward" for the ore thieves in .5 and up. For them there is no danger at all, especially since they are almost always in NPC corps you can't declare war on them.

So how can there be a "risk vs reward" factor added into thier profession becuase, in my opinion, this makes them the uberest carebears of all. How can you be a pirate or a theif when there is no danger to it whatsoever?
Calsak wrote:
Miners don't own the asteroids, yes, once the miner has mined that asteroid into ore then I'd argue that they do own the ore as they put the work to get it.

The sticking point here is once that miner has put that ore into what was basically designed as a dustbin does anyone have the right to take it without permission.

Technically it's fair game. The miner has 'thrown it away'. Morally it's worng, but as morals don't come into game mechanics then its a factor we cannot control.

Some suggest taking out jet cans all together. That I would say would be out of the question. Scaling down the size of a jet can would also be a none starter. A better suggestion might be to make jet can's so you can take out but not able to put things in. Ctrl and Click the multiple items to want to jettison and then jet it all in one go (so you don't have to make a can or each item you want to jettison). This will keep them more in keeping with the way they where intended to be used.

The obvious downside is that mass mining in secure space would decrease over night and common ores and minerials would increase in price, thus player created items would increase in price to follow suit.
Quote:
Why is it so easy to steal ore ?


The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.

This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.

CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.

The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.
Quote:
The funniest thing I've read in this thread is people accusing jet miners of being lazy, whilst defending ore thieves.

Rather ironic really
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Chief WO4


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CCP official word wrote:
Hello everyone.

To set the record straight, we can and do ban players for griefplaying. Note that attacking another player is not griefplaying. But, while attacking another player is not forbidden anywhere in EVE, excessive use of disposable alts (as judged by a GM), the use of exploits or the abuse of trial accounts to grief players for your own profit without risk of retribution will not be tolerated.

We have banned players for what we deem to be griefing before and we will continue to do so. Abuse of trial accounts can and will lead to a ban on your main account(s). I hope this clears up some questions about this subject.


GM Arkanon

Senior Game Master



moron wrote:
]There already is balance. The ore thief is the balance to the risk free jet can miner.
check and balances or unfair exploit of a well known "feature" exploit. Personally, punks like this who use this excuse conveniently forget about the fact a secure can can't be locked unless it's anchored.

and you can't anchor secure cans in secure space. pretty fuckin funny if you ask me. defeats the whole purpose and invalidates mr. M0o's counterargument.
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Bhurak
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Posts: 52

PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jsut remember, stavros's rebuttal to any argument is to end yourself.


Face it, this game is made for the beta testers. Your 15 a month is just gravy to them



B
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Heretic
Chief WO4
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spacefold wrote:
On this little Player Rat problem...

I think of it this way. The only thing irl that stops the relative majority of people from killing, torturing or otherwise creating a harmful disposition for another citizen is the fear of going to jail or the gas chamber.

If these rat entities play a certain way, just study their monotonous behavior and keep this in mind. ALL MMO's have entities with these more than significant maturity problems. Having an open game universe has consequences if the programmers drop the ball or don't learn how to keep the player experience fresh and fun for people just looking to play in a non-violent way or accept the risks of NPC related challenges.

Player Rats will often consider themselves as "game mechanics" which is clearly an attempt to rationalize their own behavior. At one time, all pathological possibilities aside, they probably knew they did something wrong. Kind of like the first time you kill someone. It gets easier each time I'm quite sure.

Yes it's a game, yes there are real people. Don't tell me you're going to go down to a tennis match and beat the crap out of Anna Kornikova because it's a "game." It's still a social activity :)

law·less

1. Unrestrained by law; unruly: a lawless mob.
2. Contrary to the law; unlawful: the lawless slaughter of protected species.
3. Not governed by law: the lawless frontier.

then again, let's put that into perspective in regards to the topic and mention that 'carebears' justify their goody-goody holier-than-thou attitude by complaining about obvious game mechanics in order to encourage a sense of risk.

yeah, that's it. It's the elimination of risk to THEMSELVES that marks the motivations behind a carebear or griefer.

Jarmon Karlentis wrote:
Emily Spankratchet wrote:

On the other hand, if somebody used a throwaway alt to blow up my Indy because they didn't want their main to take a security hit I'd be bloody annoyed.


Precisely my point, I don't mind someone who has made a role for themselves as a pirate is accepting the constraints of the game. Someone who just destroys a ship for no other purpose than to irritate them is a griefer. Plain and simple.

Someone who mines into a jetcan and then whines when somebody else empties it is a carebear is just as bad imho.
*shrug* you know, when it comes down to it, it's not the player who's made a role for themselves as a terrorist, who does actually destroy a ship for no other purpose than the pretty booms, that actually irks me. It's the player who makes an ALT to avoid the consequences of such an action.

Heh. and yeah, it's funny to see the rants by miners in Yulai when i hit that place on a shopping spree. What's even funnier is the ore thieves love it. The rants. I think that's why people mostly steal ore...I mean, it's a very cost effective means of acquiring isk, but you KNOW you're stealing.

I just can't see the rewards in cost effectiveness when it boils down to a comparison between that and ethics. The only logical conclusion is the 'waste-removal-specialists' do it for the glory of some doofus in Yulai actually being shocked by the behavior. lol
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MuffyBot™
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Official GM wrote:
I just want to add to what GM Arkanon said here earlir. What is an alt? It's usually the other 2 characters on your account, where you have your main character.

These are commonly used for spying, market monitoring, nubbing agent missions in empire and some use them for smaller alternate tasks such as a manufacturer, miner, hauler and actually train them some.

Now, there are also other kind of "alts", which are on another account, these are very common for advanced players and really shouldn't be called "alts" at all - since the other account also has 2 spots besides the main char for the real "alts". The second account "alt" is more like "your ***** away from home" IMO. You know, you use her when you aren't using your "homey *****". However, they are still called "alts" since they aren't really _you_. Then there is the trial account ho and recycled alt ho's. You wouldn't have sex with her even if she only took five dallah and had a nice accent to go with it. But you use if for stuff you wouldn't dare use your main for cause you are such a coward which can't deal with the consequences.

Ok, then thats settled with mains, ***** away from home, alts and the ho's. Now, lets expand on the suicide kestrels with these four types of characters:

- Your main. Never used for suicide kestrels or anything resembling a suicide [insertcheapshiphere]. Never used for posting on the forums. Never used to gank in empire. (Except the real pirates and merceneries, which are proud of their profession, live and suffer with the consequences and have the scars to prove it, like -10 in sec rating)

- Your ***** away from home. This one is usually the pirate, or your other carebear agent running self since your main is a pirate. Occasionally post on the forum to give your mains forum posts more credibility. Still no suicide stuff, you don't want to ruin chars sec rating to get some cheap 3M mining turret.

- Your alts. Sometimes used for suicide kestrels and various other lame suicide attempts. Always used for posting on the forum. Used for ganking in empire and shooting Convoys. Often used as smaller specialized characters (trader, spy, hauler, miner)

- Your ho's. Always used for suicide attacks. Always goes for the players that can't defend themselves against them, most of the time nubs which have no clue. Always used to post lame kill mails on the forums. Always used to say stuff you wouldn't even dare say out loud inside your closet cause your mom might still hear you swear. Commonly mistaken as an account which we can't trace back to the real owner and commonly thought as an account which we dont ban your main, your ho and your alts for.

Under no circumstances is using ho's for killing anything else than griefing and abuse of trial and/or character system by recycling. Under all circumstances, all accounts traced to this account will be banned, usually without warning.

I think that clears it up. If not here is the simple version:

You can go kill people wherever you want if you take the consequences like a man (or a woman). You can't if you use ho's to abuse the system.

Oh, if you are considering that since you have been creating ho's for yourself or a friend through the buddy program, yes that nagging feeling about your main might get banned for it is quite warranted
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: logic, pure logic Reply with quote

here's an expansion on the whole 'risk aversion' theme...
Lygos wrote:
You have to change incentive structures and player behaviour from the source. Simplistic mechanical adjustments will not overcome rational actor thinking. Hence, simplistic analytical appraisals of the dilemma not sufficient.

People like to say they are macho pvpers.
People also like to spend 98% of their time sitting in safespots of some sort and not talk about it. As a rule, pvp is about waiting for someone else to stick their neck out.
Which speaks louder to you?

The simplest answer is never the correct one. Human beings are reticent and risk-averse by nature - games must plan around this fact rather than cater to it or against it.

EVE is not a game of risk-management (yet?) as pvp is increasingly not a necessary part of the game. Even the people who do allegedly seek pvp cannot honestly claim to seek it out of necessity. There is no carebear/pvper dynamic at work as that is a laughably thin Derrida-ian binary. There is no political whiner conspiracy at work my dear suffering and maligned paranoiacs. You are all the same. You are all in the same boat. Some of you just happen to be more focused on singular game mechanics rather than the whole production. You all have equal intellectual reserve capacity for broad perspicacity on this microcosm of a political universe. Any immediate snide reaction to this is a defense mechanism to protect you from thinking outside your own immediate desires.
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Heretic
Chief WO4
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Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakk Graiseach wrote:
Oveur (DEV) wrote:

Attacking people in 0.4 and less is a valid tactic and always has been. The current police presence is what we consider appropriate for a low security outer empire system.


At the moment... They said similar things in UO 5 years ago, then they decided they'd rather make more money than keep the "whiney PKs" happy.

The gate-camping/sniping may be a 'valid tactic' but it's a boring one and lets nobrainers get easy kills so they can boast about them to their nobrainer buddies [8)]

"I WTFPWNZ0R'd sum lwsr in a bajjer - he ws soooo winey. I R teh roXXor!!!111one" *chuckles*

I prefer a stand up fight myself - always have... even 5 years ago in UO [:D]
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