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Research Laboratories

 
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Heretic
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Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:04 pm    Post subject: Research Laboratories Reply with quote

Jonas Bane wrote:
Labs are part of the production cycle. Manufacturers use Blue Print Originals to build things in factories. These BPOs can also be researched in a lab to improve their production efficency (things can be built faster) and mineral efficency (things take fewer raw materials to build). For big items with expensive components, like cruisers and battleships, mineral efficency can save the manufacturer a good chunk of isk in raw materials, providing more profit.

Labs can also be used to make Blue Print Copies. These are limited run duplicates of an existing BPO. They can be sold on Escrow to smaller manufacturing corps, with higher ME versions fetching more money.

But you need to have a pretty well developed manufacturing system before research becomes worthwhile. Labs themselves are hard to come by, and expensive if you're buying them from someone else. A recent change has been driving up lab rental fees as well. The BPC market is pretty saturated too, making it difficult to turn a profit if its your only means of income. And unless you have someone building things in volume, ME and PE research on its own has no benefit.


well, i for one am lucky to find a lab slot to rent (cost me 11k for 5 day durations) and i took some pics because i know when i didn't have a lab i was dying of curiosity to know what the process looked like.


First off, glossary: BPO = blueprint original (what npc corporations sell on the market) ; BPC = blueprint copy. (what players sell on escrow; these usually are "upgraded" at laboratories - making them worth more than "off-the-shelf" originals)
    laboratories are soooooooo hard to rent, and copies so expensive that i've given up and just buy blueprint originals and ignore the whole research aspect...i do this because it's cost effective to use a factory slot (easily available) to stock my corporate hangars instead of flying all around collecting equipment/ships i might need
Well, you need a copyable blueprint to install...i'd suggest investing in one as a priority. Biggest thing an up-and-coming researcher should know is that a BPO says "copy: no" (contrary to alot of rumors)
    rumors start when people mention that "the old ones could be infinite runs" and neglect to mention that, some or all (who cares), COPIES once said 'infinite'...it started out as an innocent 'taken-for-granted' statement and ballooned into a sanity threatening rumor simply because n00bs who enter the game hear the nostalgia and assume it has ANY relevance to common sense and eve-online.

    personally, having BPOs that made BPCs with 'infinite' runs turned researching into a joke. I mean, if it was that way, why have fucking BPCs at all? (it just screamed, "multifunction" blueprint: both factory slottable and lab slottable)
    :maxpayne:

    See, as a n00b, all i want to do is MAKE stuff. Running around selling copies of extremely expensive stuff at obscene prices is waaaaaaaaay out of my league right now. All this chatter about copy this and pre-patch infinite that confuzzles the hell outta me and i start to get the impression in order to make anything i first have to get a lab slot (mission impossible) then buy an obscenely expensive BPO, then copy that and use the copy in the factory slot.


BPO

In domain region the going rate for this blueprint is 2,750k isk. I've heard (from here) that a "fresh" BPO bought off the market shows "-" for ME, Prod and Runs. (see that thread for info on escrow scams)

BPC

In domain region the going rate for the finished product is 250k isk (but right now there's bargain prices at around 218k)
    at lvl1 production efficiency skill, and ME of 15, the needed minerals to even install the BPC into a 'factory' slot is:
  • 24775 tritanium
  • 6665 Pyerite
  • 3205 Mexallon
  • 436 Isogen
  • 95 Nocxium
  • 18 Zydrine
At current prices, based on (25k+ volume near penirgman) Domain market listings, the above mineral value at sale comes to 287k isk. Rounded up. (btw, you can see universe market ticker here for more "stable" price listings)
    Best way for n00bs to get that proportion of minerals is recycle 'rat loot, because nocxium & zydrine can only be refined from ore located in dangerously low security zones. you can see refining amounts here and asteroids/security zones there
So, basically, breaking even on producing stuff from a factory is damned hard without massive skill levels (and lots of research into ME). Since selling the minerals instead of using them to produce a ship looks to be more worth it from the above example...with admitedly low ME/PE research input.

Anyways, hypothetically speaking, if one is going to take the time in researching ME plus training Production Efficiency (instead of just selling the damned ore and buying ships from market), let's continue...and here's the steps involved in the "research wizard" once you've rented a lab slot (after finding one. good luck)Last but not least, here's the guide from Dawnstar herself


Last edited by Heretic on Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:25 am; edited 3 times in total
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Chief WO4


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicodemous wrote:
Sforza wrote:
Respectfully Rod, I dont think any mechanism that increases the price of labslots will have any effect on the current situation. If the rental prices go up, the prices that people charge to free a slot will go up as they attempt to recoup the price increase, yet again pricing the small time player out of it. Even if the pricing mechanism forces hoarders to unrent, they'll simply rerent with an alt at the lower price again, and wait it out.
Actually, the slot pricing situation is about to hit critical mass... I charted out the 5% compounded fees back when they deployed (august, I think it was?) and if labslots don't start opening up (it takes 2+ slots per station staying open for an entire rentcycle to stabilize slot cost) it'll be 100k per 3-day cycle in March, 200k per cycle in late April, 300k in Mid-May, 400k in early June, 500k two weeks later, and then roughly 100k additional weekly (600k, then 700k, 800k, etc..) from that point on.


agree. rents are getting quite interesting lately. anyone checked pricings for busy systems? an office now goes for 200k+ in trafficked places...labs are growing as well.

labs are a special case though. i've gotten lucky and had 2 labs at one point...played around with researching and i was quite disappointed in the mechanics...one literally has to monitor the situation constantly in order to get any value out of it. pretty much hamstringing any excursions or other commitments.

[idea][idea]
My suggestion? eliminate the current lab/factory slots. Have it so that stations that support lab/factory capability have a button that gives the operator X amount of slots in accordance with his/her "lab operations" (factory operations skill needing coding, of course)
    the rent would be best tied to "office" rent dynamics somehow
For those of you new to this game and wondering about this scientific side of the game: without massive skill investment (and isk investment in blueprints to the tune of millions), it's cheaper to buy the item/ship straight from the market.

if you're hell-bent on looking for lab slots the best way to go about it is to open up the map, display star information for laboratory slots, record stations near your "home" and check up on them once in a while during your travels...you've GOT to realize that spending time looking for lab slots pales in comparison to actually RUNNING one or more lab slots.

If you want to find an excuse to ignore this side of the game, open up 'Escrow' sometime and look at some of the stats of blueprint copies offered. imagine how long it would take YOU to make such a blueprint.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:04 am    Post subject: my take on the lack of labs Reply with quote

Is the lack of labslot a major problem that needs attention?

i don't think the issue is petty. far from it. i also tend to assume that just because an issue isn't petty that it should be some sort of problem in need of a fix.

Labs are an important part of eve, just like PvP. both have it's MAJOR sour points - mainly because it's the biggest way to impact other players.

You have to really think about that alot. Once you do, and i'm very shocked CCP haven't the f****ing guts to make an official opinion on this public, you'll realize why CCP don't hand out lab slots like candy at a sugar convention.

once you get your brain wrapped around that simple concept then spending time "fixing" a "problem" where there isn't one - just player greed - is a waste of CCP resources better spent elsewhere
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Heretic
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Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mari Y'Tuk wrote:
Ammo - takes 40minutes per ME level, 1h 20 minutes to produce a max run copy, you can make 40 or 50 copies in a rental period, each selling for 100k, now you made 5mil and your moaning about having 2mil "costs" for lab and BPO.

Equipment - 3.3 hours for an ME level, you can get one upto 50 in less than a week, again, TONS of profit to be made

Ships - High resell, lots of profit - more investment time.

All you bpc sellers out there should be Rejoincing at the changes, they make reseach time MEAN something, a solid investment, means less peep will be in the market, making the profit MORE profitable.

You just got to be more careful in how you use your slots.

YOu will see labs hitting 1- 2 mil in the next month, then you will see the peep hoarding 30+ labs shreding them, prices will start to decrease as labs become free and no-one is willing to rent them.

it adds a start-up barrier to would-be sellers, peep just looking for production will switch to buying bpcs - more market.

THIS IS EXACTY WHAT CCP ARE AIMING FOR

ITS A GOOD THING

do your maths before whine

I'm all for it, i may get the chance to get some more labs over the 21 i've already got (mainly by spending HUGE amounts of isk buying them)
My Production Spreadsheet, Most T1 Bp data, No Rounding Errors. Located here.
Carter Burke wrote:
Ki Shodan hit it on the nose - new players don't have to worry about "big corps getting in on their racket" because the kind of business a noob does is simply of no interest to an advanced player. I've been doing this for over a year, and I'm a small-timer, but I'll never produce anything smaller than a destroyer. The why of that is simply because the overall margin $$ is not enough to justify the time spent. I might make 200% margin, but if that 200% amounts to 10k, I don't want it - I can make 20% on something really big, and my overall income is *much* higher.

It really is that simple, guys. Higher prices on labs? It just means they end up being priced correctly for their value to the player base, instead of the artificially restricted 1k they used to cost.

CB
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