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Piracy 101

 
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Chief WO4


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Piracy 101 Reply with quote

Thorstein Veblen wrote:
All is fair in war and politics. It is a game of force and fraud. There is said to be honor among thieves, but one does not look for such a thing among statesmen.
jacraven wrote:
To me it seems piracy here is being used as an excuse to kill, the aim with piracy shoud always be to get the money



first of all let's dispell some rather nasty myths about the romance around piracy. using Out-of-game resources
BlindKat wrote:
Pirates only remained successful so long as nations allowed them to roam. Often, a corrupt governor would allow a persons or persons perform piratical acts for a set fee, similar to the arrangements for privateering. Of course the acts committed were not against enemy vessels, it was just purely for financial gain. In return the pirate received safe harbor. Once nations and colonial authorities eliminated safe harbors, organized piracy began to dry up quickly.

Even back in roman times - Julius Caesar's oft quoted Vini Vici Vidi came from him defeating the pirates off turkey - pirates were parasites that ONLY flourished during wars. civil or not. As soon as the wars stopped and ceasefires signed, pirates just simply ceased to exist.

Victims of piracy would usually be ransomed with hostages taken to ensure payment was made. Whether or not the victimized ship was released was most likely an issue of crew to man her or not.

Quote:
Some very basic concepts:

One thing to remember, Pirates did not attack man-o-wars with sloops. They attacked lightly armed merchants ships with sloops. Pirate did not attack unless they had the upper hand. If they didn't think they were going to win, they didn't engage.

The process of attack could be relatively simple. The pirates would come up from the bow or stern at an angle to prevent the merchants from engaging with the side guns and give a signal that if they were shot at, they would take no prisoners. It was then up to the merchant to determine if it was bluff or a serious threat.

Two sides of the same coin:
One reason a merchant would fight is if the pirates had a reputation of torturing the crew no matter if they fought or not. A reason they may not fight is because the pirates did not torture the crew unless they put up a fight.

If the merchant thought he out-gunned the pirates he may call their bluff and fight the pirates, which may lead to a pirate retreat or a slaughter of the merchant crew.

If the merchant knew he was outnumbered, he may allow his ship to be boarded in order to spare his crew. If the merchant captain feared a mutiny among his crew for engaging a fight with the pirates he may also back down and take his chances. Many things figured into why a merchant would not fight off the pirates. It is almost a given that if the pirates were outgunned, they would run and not attack. Pirates were looking for easy pickings, not an early death.

Remember that while the pirates may have had a sloop, they would also have a large crew and possibly more guns than the merchant ship they attacked.

You must also remember that the merchant crews were not necessarily well paid and may not care to fight for cargo that they did not own. Thus the captain may have a very unreliable crew when it came to fighting for his property.

The pirates relied more on fear and distrust than on cannons when it came to taking on their opponents.

***

All in all, life on board ship was harsh. If you weren't working hard you were bored beyond belief. Sailor would often sing shanties to pass the time while working or board. The songs often contained lyrics that were anything but politically correct. Many have been passed down through the ages and still exist today.

With such a harsh and dreary life, one may wonder why anyone would ever go to sea. The answer is quite simple. Many sailors were pressed into service. This is a nice way of saying drafted. In reality they were kidnapped in the middle of the night and forced to serve on a ship. For others, life on land was just as harsh and some times even more harsh than that on the sea. The sea life, at least offered the possibility of escape from the dreariness of the day to day routines.

Sailors would turn to piracy often in an attempt to further escape this miserable existence

Quote:
If modern psychology existed at the time, most pirates would have been labeled anti-social psychopaths mss murderers. Think of it this way, In real life for every Jack Sparrow, who was a good man and a pirate you would have crew of the Black Pearl filled with dozens of pirates who had sold their soul to the Devil.
So the "Real Story" of Piracy is much different! Or is it? Most of the historical accounts on piracy can be traced back to one or two sources, Primarily Defoe's (Johnson) work titled A General History of Pyracy. Defoe is probably more famous for his book Robinson Crusoe.

Defoe treatise on piracy is suspect at best. His General History was written for consumption in the daily news papers of London. It was not a scholarly work by any stretch. Most of his sources were never verified and it is quite possible that some of his stories are embellished to say the least. For instance, Bartholomew Roberts is often credited with plundering over 400 ships, yet he was a pirate for a mere four years. If you do the math, it means he was plundering a ship every 3 or 4 days. This is not a remarkable feat, its an impossible feat.
Another site wrote:
Ransoming is a common practice among privateers. Usually persons or cargoes are taken from the ships and held for ransom. The family or owners have to pay a ransom to get their relatives or posessions back. Cargoes, or parts of cargoes are generally less popular as objects for ransoming than persons.
Quote:
1988: Etymological Dictionary
The Barnhart dictionary of Etymology / Robert K. Barnhart, ed. - [Bronx, N.Y.] : Wilson, 1988

#1 Buccaneer (Boekanier)
n. 1661, a French settler employed as a hunter of wild oxen on the Spanish coasts of America, borrowed from French boucanier one who dries and smokes meat on a boucan, a barbecue, after the manner of the Indians, from an Indian word of the Caribbean area (perhaps Tupi mocaém, transcribed as mukem in a Portuguese travel account, 1587); for suffix see -eer. By 1690 the word was applied to French and then to British piratical rovers who were driven from their business of hunting wild oxen by the Spanish authorities and turned to plundering goods. In the 1800's it was extended to any pirate or sea rover

#2 Corsair (Piraat)

n. 1549, borrowed from Middle French corsaire pirate, from Italian corsaro, from Medieval Latin cursarius runner, from cursus hostile excursion, booty, from Latin cursus (genitive cursus) a race, journey, from past participle of currere to run; see current. Doublet of Hussar.

#3 Freebooter (Vrijbuiter)
n. pirate. 1570 frebetter, borrowed from Dutch vrijbuiter, from vrijbuiten to rob, plunder (vrij free + buit booty, from buiten to exchange or plunder, from Middle Dutch buten, related to Middle Low German bute exchange; see free and booty). Doublet of Filibuster

#4 Filibuster (vrijbuiter)
n. deliberate hindering of legislation by making long speeches, etc. About 1851, in American English Fillibustier, Flibuster; later Filibuster (1855) any American who engaged in uprisings in Latin America, especially Cuba and later in Mexico and Nicaragua; borrowed from Spanish Filibustero a freebooter, and from French Flibustier. The word is recorded earlier in English Flibutor pirate or adventurer, again in reference to activities of such individuals in the region of the Caribbean (before 1587); borrowed from Dutch vrijbuiter freebooter. The relationship of borrowing from Dutch to French and Spanish and English is unclear. Perhaps French Flibustier came from English Flibutor, and earlier directly from the Dutch in the form of Fribustier. The distinction of nomenclature among the adventurers in the Caribbean area during the 1500's and 1600's is confused by the activities they engaged in. The French settlers hired as hunters for the Spanish (buccaneers), were driven out and turned to plundering so that the Bucaner took on the new meaning of pirate; this overlapped with the Freebooter or Filibuster (Flibuster) or common rover. Doublet of Free-booter.
Though the meaning of an act or instance of obstructing legislation by prolonging debate, is first recorded in 1890 in the Congressional record, it is implied earlier in the sense of legislator who prolonged debate, first recorded in 1853. This latter sense has been replaced in the form of Filibusterer (1855). --v. to engage in a legislative filibuster. 1853, in American English; from the noun

#5 Norse
n. people of ancient Scandinavia, especially Norwegians or a Norwegian. 1598, probably borrowed from earlier modern Dutch Noorsch, adj., Norwegian (now Noors), from noordsch (now noords) northern, from noord (NORTH); also perhaps in some instances borrowed from modern Danish or Norwegian norsk (reminiscent of Shakespeare's use of Dansker for "Dane").
A parallel form northman has existed in English since the time of Alfred (before 899) and has had a discontinuous history, appearing in the record of Old English until about 1000 and then reappearing in 1605. During the Middle English period the form was altered to northern man, appearing before 1200. -adj. of ancient Scandinavia, its people, or their language. 1768, in Thomas Gray's Odes; from the noun.

#6 Pirate (Piraat)
n. Probably before 1300, in Kyng Alisaunder; earlier as a surname Pyrot (1254); borrowed from Old French Pirate, and directly from Latin pirata sailor (in Medieval Latin piratus sea robber, 1328) from Greek peirates brigand or pirate; literally, one who attacks, from peiran to attack, make a hostile attempt on, try, from peira trial, experience, an attempt, attack; see fear. The transferred meaning of a person who appropriates or reproduces the work or invention of another without right or permission is first recorded in 1701, in Defoe's works.

#7 Piracy (Piraterij)
n. Before 1552 borrowed from Medieval Latin piratia, from Medieval Greek *peirateia, from Greek peirates Pirate; fro suffix see -cy. --Piratical adj. 1565, obtained by piracy (but implied earlier in piratically by piracy, 1549); 1579-80, of or like a pirate; formed in English from Latin piraticus (from Greek peiratikos, from peirates pirate) + English -al

#8 Privateer (Kaperschip/Kaperkapitein)
(pri'vetir) n. privately owned armed ship holding a government commission to attack and capture enemy ships. 1664, formed from English private, adj. + -eer, probably patterned after volunteer; originally an informal term for private man of war (1646)

#9 Rove
v. 1536, wander about, roam; of uncertain origin. Early modern English rove may be a dialect variant of earlier northern British English and Scottish dialect rave to wander, stray, rove; developed from the Middle English Raven (probably about 1380), probably borrowed from a Scandinavian source (compare Icelandic rafa to wander, rove
This word is connected by the OED with the verb rove, a term in archery meaning to shoot arrows at random marks, on the basis of an earlier (1474) citation for the archery term. However, the difference in meaning between the two words makes such a connection doubtful. A more plausible relationship may be found in the obsolete verb rove to sail as pirates, roam the seas as rovers (implied in roving, 1513), which was probably a back formation from rover

#10 Rover (zeerover)
n. sea robber, pirate. Before 1393 rovere, in Gower's Confessio Amantis; borrowed from Middle Dutch rover, rovere, robber, predator, plunderer (especially in zeerovere sea robber, pirate), from roven to rob; for suffix see -er

#11 Viking
or viking n. 1807 vikingr one of the Scandinavian pirates who raided the coasts of Europe from the 700's to the 900's; borrowed from Old Icelandic vikingr (possibly with the sense of one who came out of the inlets of the sea, and formed from Old Icelandic vik creek, inlet, bay + -ingr -ing). The modern Icelandic form is vikingur. The spelling viking is first recorded in English in 1840. The word is not found in Middle English , but came into use in modern historical writings. However, cognates of the Old Icelandic word are found in Old English wicing (occurring in compounds as early as the 700's) and Old Frisian wizing, wising, which, according to the OED, is "from a date so early as to make its (viking) Scandinavian origin doubtful ... because evidence for vikingr in ... Old Icelandic is doubtful before the latter part of the 10th cent." Thus, Old English wicing was probably derived from wic village, camp, from Latin vicus; see VICINITY.






disclaimer: i'm a n00b at this, so it's a bit messy. In fact alot of the time i've forgotten to put quotes on stuff, especially that list in the "sources" section (add the fact i'm taking 100% of this stuff with a grain of salt)
    i'd say a bucket of salt, but it's really not needed. most of the lies in this thread - i'm assuming there's lots - is based on a simple simple axiom: "greed" And as we all know, greedy people, as opposed to your average self-interested mature person, are usually lazy and quite happy to be bored out of their minds cause they have no imagination. easiest way to spot a lie is to call a spade a spade: these people are GREEDY. once you realize that, avoiding stepping on the bullshit is easy. don't assume i'm calling the "lone wolf" pirate profession immature by default, since i'd have to call the entire "mob rule" non-pvp community carebears by default as well. I'm not entertaining that myth of myths
one thing i DO know, based merely on objective gaming reality, is that it seems low sec space is ruled by the sniping battleships tanking sentries, countered by only covertops ganged with firesupport. I'm assuming this happens on the routes to 0.0 space, since it's logical to assume these bored-out-of-their-mind gankers probably like to be able to travel to safe resupply depots. Personally, i'd rather mine veldspar in 1.0 space...sounds alot more lucrative and fun! (at least i get to do something every minute)

As a final disclaimer: There is going to be no "debate" about 'risk vs reward' philosophies when discussing "prey"...i'm simply going to sort out the wheat from the chaff on the FACTS and will avoid dissecting immature attempts at wannabe propaganda that pretty much passes for FICTION.

Bhaal wrote:
I think some ppl are under the misguided notion that you pick a career, specialize, and never have to do anything else in the game to make a buck...

Sorry, but that is not going to work, especially if you choose to be a pirate...

I think if you choose such a single minded approach to the game, you will suffer the ISK crunch somewhere along the line.

The more you try out all of what EVE has to offer, and find a combination of ISK making scheme's, the less you will have to worry about your wallet...

I have 3 EVE accounts, and I still never have more than 50-100 mill at a time in my "collective" wallet. But I enjoy just about every facet EVE has to offer. This is what I personally have to do to keep an interest in EVE. I could not sit back and choose a career and only do that 100% of the time and expect to survive, I would get bored & quit the game.

Pirates should not be able to sit at gates 100% of the time & survive, you need to go do something else once in a while.

CCP has given you mining, npc hunting, agent running, trading, etc.

If you refuse to use those tools given to you to make ISK to support your pirate career, then it's your own fault.

Probably every good PvP'er in this game has either a second account to support that PvP'er, or other corpmates who support him.

Pirate corps have to realize that they need to do "work" just like everyone else in this game to make a living... I'm sure the good ones have figured this out long ago...

So yes, when you come on the boards and talk about how you can't pirate 100% of the time & make loads of ISK, I tell you that's the way is is and should be, and CCP will not make it a cake walk for you. Run some agent missions, kill some NPC's or go pickup a mining laser.

If you don't want to do any of those things, and you just want to gank... Expect to be poor until the EVE servers go offline...
So, keeping the above in mind, let's ask a few hard questions:

  1. what actions constitute aggression (ie. sec hit and attack by either concord &/or sentries)
  2. how big is the sec. hit? is it constant? For accidentally damaging a player in 1.0 space with a smartbomb i received 0.05% hit (that's 100 minor sanshas)
  3. How long are flags set for? I personally know of a situation where it lasted almost an hour
  4. what sec.levels can i place warp disruptors to get the insta-jumpers?
  5. I've heard alot of whining about it being to expensive and loooooooong to setup/take down. How long? how expensive? it's basic stats so it can't be hard
  6. Is it better to catch traders when they enter a system or when they arrive? Do webbers/warpscramblers and warpdisruptors alter this?
  7. If i find a lvl4 combat agent in 0.4 space can i conceivably maintain a reasonable piracy trade? how much does a rat BS give in sec.level boost?
  8. I know of good traders hauling Antibiotics, Holoreels, Livestock and Hydrogen Batteries...if i camp those routes which tactic is better used and prevent me "killing off the customer"?
  9. Miners...are they better left alone to give the impression of safe space for the traders, or are miners excellent targets of opportunity? should one scare miners away from places YOU'D want to mine? Is this doable in empire without accusations of griefing?
  10. If scaring traders is better than the odd scan and gank, what set up is best for taking them to hull without killing them? I'm thinking of merely a display of power and a little "protection racket" incentive than outright ganking. (and is this approach even worth while?)
  11. what's this rumor about sentries switching targets randomly?
  12. how does one use the settings in map to read where possible threats to you are coming from?
  13. i can't power two clients at once, so alt scouts is out of the question. In this case, is there a way to prevent myself being ganked by a covertops+raven combo? is there such a thing as "cloak detector"?
  14. how difficult is it to kill a pod?
  15. what would i need to defeat 2 warp stabilizers?
  16. how does passive targeting work and are targeting boosters versus fat lumbering industrials cost effective?
  17. what's this rumor about "you shoot someone you can't jump"?
  18. is it better to actually snipe or tank? or do you need both in low sec space?
  19. If i'm allowed to anchor warp disruptors in low sec space (0.4-0.3), is it possible to drain one's capacitor and get a warp between jumpgates? (assuming you know from your trade route list which direction a trader will come from fully loaded)
  20. how big is this "warp bubble" and can i set up something like this and then wait just outside it just in case i need to run?
  21. If get flagged with aggression at such a deepspace spot, and i need to flee, can i insta-jump to a station safely?
  22. finally, i hear convoys now give out zero loot...i wasn't really interested in this...never saw the point. there might have been one, once. Can someone confirm that a low sec (0.4-0.3) convoy gives out zero loot now?
  23. There's also a rumour about how concord/sentries won't shoot at -5 seclvl pilots, just that local navies send a gank squad? is this true?

Lallante wrote:
  1. Any hostile action in space with 0.1 or greater sec status is considered aggression: Shooting, SmartBomb, Jamming, Warp Scrambling, Any hostile action in 0.5 or greater space is dealt with by sentries AND also concord, and is generally extremely difficult to live through in ANY ship.
  2. Killing a ship gets you 4 or more times the sec hit of damaging one, killing a pod gives you a HUGE hit. It is variable though depending on the sec of the system (1.0 gives worse hits)
  3. Criminal Flagging lasts 20mins. BUT IT RESETS if you relog!
  4. Mobile Warp Disruptors only in 0.0
  5. Small and Medium WDs arent too expensive. Small are around 5mill and Med like 20, not really sure, but somewhere in that Ballpark. It takes 5 mins to deploy or undeploy a small, and 20 or so for a med. LArge arnt ingame yet.
  6. Easiest to catch people on ENTERING a system (again, it will have to be 0.0 if you want to do it at a gate and arnt confident about tanking sentry gun damage). YOU NEED a warp disruptor minimum. Aim to sit right on the gate and warp disrupt your target before it warps out. You cant realistically kill traders without warp disrupting them as they can warp out before you kill (exception is if you are in a pure damage BS)
  7. [*muffy edit: no comment?*]
  8. See above, make sure there is 0.0 space on the route.
  9. Miners are a better target BECAUSE there are no sentry guns in belts, again ONLY in 0.4 or lower! Pirating them is piracy not griefing. If you get warp disruptors and webbers and just lock them down and hurt them, they may even pay you to be released.
  10. You need a Warp Disruptor and Webber.
  11. Sentries switch targets after 1 min to any other hostiles. If 3 of you attack at once, and one takes the fire for 1min, it will then move to another one.
  12. If in 0.0 space, Map set to "players in space" can show approaching fleets (more than 2 or 3 pilots), however you cant easily tell small enemy groups apart from normal traffic.
  13. No Covert detectors, however running regular max range scans should give you time to escape. To be honest, unless its Covert, Inty AND Raven you should have time to warp out once you see the raven arrive. KEEP ALIGNED TO A PLANET TO SPEED THIS UP
  14. Locking a Pod is slow, Once you have the lock, killing it is 1 volley or less.
  15. To defeat 2 warp stabalizers you need strength 3 or more scrambling, ie
    2 scrambers or a scrambler and a disruptor.
  16. Sensor Boosters are worthwhile to catch faster prey (still need a warp disruptor though). Passive targetting is not useful for piracy generally.
  17. If you shoot someone, you have a 60 second aggression timer during which time you can neither jump through a gate nor dock. Once 60 seconds expires you can go.
  18. You really need both, but there are specific tactics that employ one or the other, experiment. In greater than 0.0 space YOU NEED tanking to survive the sentries if you want to gate pirate.
  19. You cant in any space but 0.0, ALSO the MWdisruptors ONLY work in the grids where the target enters or exits warp, not inbetween.
  20. Small is 5km radius, M is 20km radius, yes you can (and should) wait outside it
  21. Once again, only after the 60 second timer expires.
  22. Convoys still give out loot...
  23. -2 = shot by concord in 1.0
    -2.5 = in 0.9 and 1.0
    -3 = 0.8 etc

    And so on, down to 0.4 where concord dont go.
    If you have -5, then any PLAYER can shoot you ANYWHERE without concord or Sentries getting involved.

    Faction NPCs have nothing to do with sec status, the phenomena you describe occures when your FACTION standing goes too low (for instance, from killing too many Gallente convoys)

============== sources ==============

Hakera wrote:
same way anyone becomes a combat character only you shoot anyone who isnt your friend. Train for pvp so I would say aim for a cruiser like a blackbird or thorax, train the basic ew skills for warp scrambling along with your gunnary/missile skills. Will take a few months and you can assist other pirates while your in a frig but I would say get experience first by running missions and so on.

Pirating can only be done in systems of 0.4 or lower and pay attention to the sec hit you will get which when low enough will prevent you from entering high sec space.

sniggardly wrote:
hakera's advice is good, anyone starting out pirating needs to be aware of a few things... you make LOTS of enemies VERY FAST. And with that comes the problem of the secuity status, forget >0.4 empire, after a few ship kills/ransoms/ganks as you will start to drop sec pretty fast. good advice is if you wanna become a pirate, move all your assests to a 0.4 system right on the fringes of high sec empire... so when you do drop sec, your stuff doesn't get stranded in a 0.9 system.









m0o corp wrote:
Erm, why would anyone leave Empire again?

With lvl4 agents, CCP basicly implemented a "spawn high-bounty npcs in secure space on demand" system. You not only get rewards for this, but you can respawn them as often as you want, and unlike 0.0 npcing, they're usually spawned in deadspace locations and special bookmarks, which IS basicly "instancing".

GG I say. Who cares about arkonor and megacyte when you can just inflate the market with bounty isk? Who cares about PvP when you're safe chaining your 1.5mil npcs next to concord? WHAM. Single-player agent running game with a chat client.

Those lvl4 missions in secure space were the worst decision that CCP ever made. Welcome to The Grind. Take a seat and wait for your npc spawn while we provide your with a chat channel. If you stay with us long enough, you will have 10 billion isk, a navy raven and a full set of named items. Have a nice and incredibly linear gaming experience!

Also stop portraying pirates as the eye-patched, peg-legged, tight-wearing, musically dancing variation that Disney managed to shove down your throats as children. Pirates were murderous pillagers, and they rarely "ransomed" anything but the most valuable of passengers. Ganking a ship, killing pod and taking its loot is an excellent example of piracy, and kudos to all the pirates out there who do it. Don't listen to the whiners who would like to see you begging for ransom while they logoff or laugh with their insurance. CCP nerfed "Highwayman" piracy, intentionally or not, and it's not viable anymore. The best you can do is ransom a pod, since they can't be insured.

Murder, pillage and loot. And don't listen to the dumbasses who insist that you should engage on "fair terms" and ransom ships when you can. If you engage on fair terms, there's a fair chance that you might die. If you gank someone, there isn't. In both cases, you get the loot. So what's the incentive for a fair fight again? Ransoming ships isn't a viable occupation. If the target doesn't have expensive modules he'll give you the finger. If he does have expensive modules, it's a better (and faster) idea to blow him up before he logs off and take the loot instead of calculating how much the ransom will cost.
Archbishop wrote:
What happend were we had good pirates (Space Invaders, The Gang, etc) who did a real good RP job as pirates. Then along came Mara/Passari and senseless griefer killing. That one event so turned the Eve community against "piracy" more then anything in Eve. I remember the endless forum posts, letters and phone calls to CCP, people outraged. Then you had more griefers podding people in 1.0 newbie systems. Imagine being a brand new player, buying a game and getting killed everytime you leave a station. THAT is the kind of behavior that ended "real piracy" in Eve.

After Mara/Passari started people complained to high heaven about it to the GM's. The result was the famous SWAT battleship incident...... After that some quick patches to fix the modules they were exploiting that improperly magnified damage and adding some sentry guns the 'mature' player was safe from the griefers for a time. But the end result was the "real pirates" were also out of business. A few bad players ruined it for everyone.

It's not fair to blame anyone but the original griefers for ending piracy. They're the ones who acted so out of control in mindlessly killing everyone in every system that CCP was forced to take action and start swinging the nerf bat. If that "crowd" of griefers, a very small group, had just behaved, pirated like "real pirates" instead of mindlessly killing everyone and acted mature maybe CCP wouldn't have had to nerf everything.

So as you see CCP didn't force piracy out of Eve. The irresponsible actions of a few did. Aelius you say you know there were always "good" and "griefer" pilots in Eve. If those griefers early on had just been banned and CCP put the word out that that kind of gameplay wasn't tolerated we might still have real piracy today in Eve.
Quote:
Besides, as I'm sure you well know, the effort needed to push a pirate blockade away is never worth it. You get a fleet, you jump in, you try and lock on the pirates camped safely many kilometres from the gate with their boosted ranges, oh, and they're off *poof*. By the time anyone gets together, the pirates warp or log, only to come back a little later when it's quiet again and start the whole duck shoot over again. They're not making any effort, why should I? Most pirates are simply there for the easiest kills possible, nothing more or less, which is fine, but don't make out it's hard work fighting those devilish 13 BS vs 1 shuttle fights. Most of the gate camps I've seen or been involved in were simply little more than a group of battleship pilots sitting doing nothing for ages before simply locking on and firing a few quick volleys at the first noob ship to jump in. Maybe they'd have to warp out for a few minutes to wait out the timers, but they'll be back again a little while later.
course, someone from m0o corp decides to quote Sun Tzu and whisper sweet nothings about "backdoors"...mmmmm...probably took 30 seconds to think that up too. (lessie. sun tzu never had the "pull modem cord out" option)
whiner wrote:
However since Exodus things have gone downhill. Firstly Convoys, the only ‘stable’ trickle of income for small pirates has gone. For some reason they (apparently) were dropping the ‘wrong’ type of loot. Great, so the solution to this problem? remove it completely...
In parallel to this, perhaps some might consider this a moment of pure genius, someone decides “hey wouldn’t it be great if we have agent missions in secure Empire space where you get to fight NPC Battleships!” ….oh dear.
Quote:
Real piracy is sadly dead because each time pirates find a glitch in the system there are always people who cant seem to simply cull the heard, they have to slaughter the whole lot.
RollinDutchMasters wrote:
Give up. CCP does not want piracy. They want ganking.
Beringe wrote:
It seems to me that people have forgotten how things were, and why they were changed. Pirates used to sit on a gate and kill everyone (yes, even when they could stop people), and once a superior (or equal) force arrived, they would simply jump to safety. Then aggression timers were added. Nothing changed - the pirates could watch the map and see the enemy ships moving in or notice them in local, and then just not fire on them. The warp bubbles work as intended. They stop everyone well away from the gate, but forces the rats to either defend their bubble or leave it once someone bigger and badder arrives.
  • gatecampers use high sec space to run to from anti-pirate gank fleets whenever the fight isn't in their complete favour??? according to the rules "Most empire camping pirates have -5 or lower sec anyway, no 0.5 for them."...which means that 0.0 camping pirates don't worry about sec hits, so can run to high sec??? or i suppose they just run the other way or log i suppose.
  • incredibly little talk about warp disruptors, "well i have to say ccp did fix insta jumps in 0.0 with the mobile worp disrupters. a small one cast as much as a cruiser and does the job well. the problem now is in empire." (they're anchorable; in what sec status i don't know, but definitely below 0.8)
  • very little chatter about, "you shoot at someone you cannot jump" scenarios beyond a reason to whine, just not the focus of
  • It's easy to snipe &/or tank sentries at chokepoints, "With large pirate groups able to camp gates with overpowering EW, instant locking sensor boosters, massively extended sniping ranges and the abilty to tank sentries."
  • *snippage of insta-jump whinage example* ...Ever thought about catching them on the other side of the gate? Criminal flagging and sentries make it hard to web and scramble an enemy to ransom them. Sentries are your problem, not the bookmarks. That was what changed the playing style.
  • " And good luck scrambling those PODs anyways. "
  • 0.0 chokepoints connect to high security system, not low sec system
  • there's not enough incentive for low sec ores to be mined, since high sec scordite mining is more profitable...the percentages just aren't there
  • With the new BS npc missions for lvl4 agents, less incentive is there to hunt rats in 0.0 space
  • pirates would prefer chokepoints for mission bookmarks, betraying their desire for more kill zones...pathetic
  • warp scrambling someone is considered an act of aggression (flagging)
  • logging off to escape seems to invalidate warp scrambling (npc and pc)
  • "i personally think that if u dont have the fire power to bing a bs down within the two minutes it takes for the bs to disapear if warp scrambled u were unlikely to ever be able to. as for him warpin off after loggin out, if u aint got him scrambled.... nuff said" (this whole 2 minute egg timer thing is hard to nail down)
  • "Claimed territory is just that, claimed territory. If you plan on operating in known enemy territory there should be some level of risk on your part instead of a safespot, log, log on an alt and watch the map until it clears up tactic.

    If you are operating in known enemy territory which is claimed you are always at risk. You don't think special forces intelligence soldiers are at less risk when they are asleep behind enemy lines do you?

    Adding the no disappearing ship when scrambled would only solve part of the problem, which is logging in the middle of a fight. There is also a problem with large fleets being logged off in a system so that they can later all have a synchronized log-on and appear out of nowhere."
  • I'm sure you realize that there is no longer any such thing as "safespots." CCP intentionally removed those and introduced Scanner Probe modules in order to alleviate someone sitting AFK in a safespot for hours on end.

    It takes a good while (20 minutes is considered quick, usually takes longer) to find someone's ship using scanner probes
  • I have no problem with an enemy loggin off when he's faced with odds he can't possibly win against. If your ****ed about intruders not fighting you then don't bring 20:1 odds. Or if you can't scramble him or set up bubbles or other wise not lock him down then learn some better tactics.
    [/*]
  • peeps that have been playing since beta jumping into an interceptor, running out to belts to pop barges and indys, then logging off before the barge escorts can even get in range to do their jobs[/*]
  • at this point i've seen so many different "facts" about the log off 2 minute egg timer that it's difficult to get an accurate picture
    Lygos wrote:
    Well, it is pretty simple that we only need log off control against invaders when we actually have deployable empires to lose. The alliances do not actually control the vast swathes of territory they claim, so they should not have logged fleet control over 98% of that territory. The only place a player empire should be able to enforce anything like that is where they have structures deployed and conquerable stations don't really deserve to count either.

    So until CCP says they are taking this deployable structures thing seriously in the future, with newer POS beyond the "tip of the iceberg" as they say, then this argument is mostly moot.

    There are two log off tactics in play and you need to be exceptionally clear about which one you speak.
    1) Is the tactic whereby a person is losing a battle and unable to warp exits the game so that his ship disappears two minutes later, with no corollary of whether he is engaged by PCs or NPCs. It is offset by accidental game failures resulting by CTDs through game processing failure. These are established points and do not constitute argument ending rebuttals. They are points to work around.
    2)Is the aggressive tactic of deploying a fleet or squad in an enemies' center of operations and logging off all assailants during the enemies peak hours and waiting till their numbers wane or circumstances are ideal like when the response force to your invasion has retired for the evening. It is this sort of gamesmanship which retards the process of implementing balanced deployable structures. These are established points and do not constitute argument ending rebuttals. They are points to work around.


    Combat isn't "optional" in this game. If there was actually something to defend, defense would never be optional although attacking always has been. Note the strategic use of the past tense in this sentence.
  • concord goes after deepspace acts of aggression; i'm not sure about how jumpgate/station sentry actions are affected, although i did notice that it took concord to kill me while the sentry guns did nothing. (i'd shot someone in space by accident with smartbombs)
  • there's something wierd about the 'flag' time...i've noticed it extended if concord fires on you during this time, and the fact you can log and the timer still ticks down is also a fact...both of which contradict the "15 minutes; can't logout" garbage i see 24/7
  • noticed that pirates whine alot how scrambling, blowing up a ship, and killing a pod pilot all give 15 minutes...but as for the consequences to sec status for each act of aggression? unknown still
  • Studies of aggression flagging need to be researched, since i myself have witnessed strange extensions to this 15minutes even when online (and noticing flags don't "disable timer" when you log)....i sense alot of pure outright lies
  • "So if someone at a gate shoots me, the guns will shoot him? But if he shoots someone somewhere else in the system then warps to a gate, the guns won't shoot him?"
  • "Sentries will kill me though if I actualy destroy a ship in their system."[/*]


i sense a lot of BS floating around out there, and i saw it in JumpGate. It was the lack of communication by developers that the pvpers exploit to derail and constantly troll misinformation. They are the ones who benefit, not us.

I f*cking guarrantee these losers are the same that whine how mining is the only real economic viable career in jumpgate. whine whine.

You know what really ticks me off? The fact that, with a little brainwork and imagination, you can pretty much nail the routes used by the major traders...those routes have already been laid out in technicolor in those underrated threads like this one:

BlackHole Bob wrote:
Some of the better trade goods are....

Antibiotics
Holoreels
Livestock
Hydrogen Batteries

but there are so many other ones that come and go and the market is forever changing....


now, i make millions per run. in low sec space. I use bookmarks. I have shield extenders mark II on my bestower. regardless of the endless 'risk aversion' whining i could - no, make that "i'm certain" - that a career as a pirate could be insanely fun, and profitable. Problem is, most idiots would just gank things and get run off from even 0.4 systems (or get banned for recycling alts)

These people are idiots. I think the lot of them simply want to avoid risk while gaining eve-kill-mails, and are as despicable as the carebears they loathe. complete lack of imagination.

"oh, but i have to have -10 sec to be considered a real pirate." pffft. get a grip...I swear to god most of these fools think of themselves as gentleman robbers .The loners who avoid the mob mentality of the "carebears" as being mundane and not dashing. The entire thing stinks of hypocrisy and risk aversion, and perhaps a wee bit too much Alfred Noyes poetry studies in school.

I'll bet not one of them actually bother to study alternative Eve-online careers in order to discover what constitutes a strategic chokepoint other than the painfully obvious.

Now with the lvl4 combat missions one would assume an intelligent pirate would figure out they can ACTUALLY maintain enough security status to maintain an existance in low sec empire space on lucrative trade routes. But, noooooooooo, what do they do? b*tch at wh*ne about how even less prey are "forced" to play in their 0.0 sandbox. gee? wonder where all the sand went? (it's all been kicked into eyes)

And this, "awwwwwwww i have to run and hide for 15minutes blah blah" crap i see..wtf? so how come there's ways around that? hmmmmmm?



WARP DISRUPTORS
Snaad Gnabbsvindel (in an 11 page whine fest) wrote:
I havent used one but I think the usual complaint about them is that they take to long to anchor and unanchor. Also it works both ways, pirates also get stuck in it and thus have a harder time to flee if a superior fleet arrives. And they are expensive too of course. So if you have to get out in a hurry you will have to leave it for the enemy who can pick it up.
course, NOBODY say exactly how long, it's always a mysterious "tooooooooo long"
Quote:
When the sentries started switching targets every now and then it became a lot more difficult to ransom at gates, simply because it got a lot harder to stop ships without destroying them.

You can still ransom at gates, but you have to do it in advance basially. And warp bubbles are not useful in 0.1+ afaik (sentries would shoot them and/or they aren't even anchorable there).

CATCHING CAMPERS
RollinDutchMasters (low reliability) wrote:
Want to catch someone solo-camping a gate? Get a covert ops frigate, slap a booster and 4 racial jammers on it, and set yourself up as a warp-in point from one of the non-camped gates. Then drop a raven with 3 scramblers and a webber on the target. Bang, dead. You dont need your idiotic 10-man blobs to do it, you just need a bit of intellegence.
and here's the counter
Quote:
How are they vulnerable? They always have alts scouting gates which makes it easy for them to flee if any reasonable force approaches a gate (insta-bm's don't help here either) and if the force is logged off inside the offending system, the jump in local numbers is usually enough to make the campers flee to their safespots.
Hunt Smacker wrote:
You need a gang for this kind of thing. Scout the belt while cloaked, carefully check your overview and use the tactical overlay so you don't accidently trip over a bannana skin. Get into a position behind your prey, and then your gang mate warps in on top of him. The rest is up to them, depending on how knowledgable they are. Great against miners, or targets slowly moving.
POD KILLING
Rollingdutchmasters (unreliable) wrote:
It works most of the time in my experience. Firing two large named, staggered after the ship goes down but before the pod shows up on scanner, tends to do it nicely. If you wait for the pod to show up on the scanner, itll be outta range before the server fires the smartbombs.





duh huh doh can you see the absolute MESS everything is? totally zero common sense or piracy 101 guides at all...it's complete chaos, but i'll be you dollars to donuts they've got it mastered to an artform. I swear most of the ranting comes from lazy pukes who completely denigrate any and all "piracy tools" as 'too this or too little that'

I'm also amazed at the complete lack of objectivity when it comes to insta-jumps. it's like putting words in CCP mouth as to intents. "why did ccp code 15km warp limitations"? (gee, maybe something to do BESIDES allowing for insta-ganks?)


Lygos wrote:
You pirates and pvpers, under this rapid death, rare interaction combat mechanic.. were so BORING to go up against that even people with billions of isk and no real susceptibility to incentive find drawn out combat with brainless A.I.s more stimulating and more exciting. They actually get to see their raven engaged in combat. What a concept!

The real trouble with pvp is, you all do too much damage. Your ships are too good at what they do, too good at killing. You have too many sp and no one in your class wants to go up against that because there are no more variables. Because combat is easilly avoided or departed, you will never accept a decrease in your offensive power. Your boredom is a product of your own hubris. You demanded that combat remain swift, that logistics remain effortless and we all demanded that 0.0 be unstructured and we got everything we wanted. As with all classical tragedy, one good thing succeeded with the demise of something equally precious.


Last edited by Heretic on Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:49 am; edited 22 times in total
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Heretic
Chief WO4
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: little first hand experience Reply with quote

har har it is to laff. hmmmmmm...well, proof is in the pudding and some nice gentlemen relieved me of my partial hull mods outside a station when i launched.

passive targeters, or insta-lock something...dunno. only got the popup warning about "naughty naughty" from the npcs and then i was pretty booms. no nice slow radar lock sounds.

0.4 system, lucrative trade route, lvl4 combat agent a hop skip and jump away in a 0.5 system. close range, both sentries firing at a raven. looks like they got away handily with 2 of my modules.

The strange bit was, when i launched a minute later to check what they'd left someone else came in (assuming working together) and proceeded to destroy my impairor...very strange. why would they throw security status away like that once they took what they wanted? why come back a second time? Training perhaps?

Anyways, it seems pretty obvious a 0.4 career as a pirate is not only viable, but doable if you're smart enough and not a *cough*forumtroll*cough*


[:(] damnit,
that really ticks me off. not the piracy, but the fact i got a very hard crash just before i was destroyed the second time. i swear i should have docked when i ordered it to - i was right inside the 0m mark too...lost connection totally. really bad. now my bookmark folders are gone. *cries*


[:pirate:]
anyways, back to the game, i was in a bestower and my shield management is high, i had a medium shield extender, a small extender, plus 2 heat dissipation modules. DEAD IN ONE VOLLEY. they don't need warp scramblers or webbifers or whatever.

[idea]
counters: definitely, definitely going to set a warp point a very long distance from station in the direction of launch...that should hopefully deal with the situation, but what if they can just lock and kill you at close range before even that happens? Sentry turrets, both of em, were tanked - either easily, or long enough - for the pirate to grab whatever loot he thought valuable and scoot.

I'm assuming he couldn't tank indefinitely, and i'm assuming he'd not had anything but a passive targeter besides combat and tanking gear.

He went from positive to -0.2 sec level for blowing my ship up.

[:!:] oh yeah, it's doable all right. And there's no way i can prevent being ganked even when i had decent defensive gear on...which is strange. he got me with an inferno torpedo(?) and i had all that heat dissipation gear on...i'm assuming they use thermal. *shrug* still, it seems that even when a bestower has reasonable defense against the weapon used, it's still overkill.





And what's even WIERDER is the guy's been in that corporation for over a year, but doesn't have an iota of agent standing, so he probably goes to 0.0 space to work it off? If not, what then? Is it actually possible to maintain a piracy career in low sec using only local rat hunting? I'm beginning to suspect so.
    now, these aren't gatecampers, and i saw those fellows a number of times and that was the first gank...i'm assuming they're acting smart and not running amok
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=189700
looks like a decent guide for pirate n00bs
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