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premonitions =(

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:20 am    Post subject: premonitions =( Reply with quote

Jg has just received a mortal blow. The recent events on US and EU servers are killing this game...I predict within 30 days the majority of peepz will have left this game. within 3 months the servers will be shut off.

only way out now is a 'inhibitor chip' coded within the next month.

UMEC archives are dead. i'm sick of learning my take on JG's basis of 'nonconsentual pvp' has been dead wrong. I'm basically tired of humouring the relentless trolls who beat the crap out of anyone who says differently (than the last sentence)
    that ISU thing at aman is THE most pathetic disgusting thing i've ever seen happen
goodbye.
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
that ISU thing at aman is THE most pathetic disgusting thing i've ever seen happen


What can I say. I strongly disagree.

Maybe I'll see you in another game.
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HW2 my friend. i'll see you online or at www.relicnews.com forums. *salute*

(sorry, no clear release date. i'll let you know though.)
    muffy signing off for another month...sad to see this place die without my constant spamming. hope the best for you. hope i'm wrong about that premonition
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://forums2.warcry.com/flat_read.phtml?f=52&id=13251&thread=13251
hahaa...what a joke. "strongly disagree"? lol...same crap i left over. haven't learnt anything have they? no surprise here, mate.

I've no love for TG's "legendary" moderation skills, but i'm not going to fool myself into thinking ISU's month long chest beating has any value or valid points that might be improved in the slightest by "improved RP communication"

funny, i've heard the many sordid stories about RP suggestions being poo-pooed, but i've never seen said suggestions...even Russian's much lauded attempts were never disclosed, so i've got no illusions about how munchkinized they might have been. (heh. the irony)
    the trolls would be screaming "favoritism" the second "improved RP communication" was attempted...come to think of it GM supported playerRP has been attempted multiple times by TG, and how many times have powertripping passive-aggressive fencesitting have we seen by the participants? 100% (i'm implicating GMs & players in that statement)
classic. just classic. lol It's not individuals i blame, it's the vigilante culture...i was hoping the new F5:help coding might be a step in the right direction. only time will tell tho
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I would like to know your exact reasons for declaiming the blockade as pathetic and disgusting? ;)


If you want to see an outline of the original proposal for the final event, look on the warcry forums: http://forums2.warcry.com/flat_read.phtml?f=44&id=10046&thread=10046
Bear in mind that it's only an initial proposal, so I have few doubts you'll be able to poke holes in it.

This is the bit that got people particularly mad, including me. It's a fairly obvious case of using an IC explanation to accomplish a specific OOC goal. http://forums.jossh.com/showthread.php?s=6b8565fa3e2bf182e7192bf4eb4833c0&threadid=18353
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, since we're being gentlemen about this i'll read those threads. bear with me while i give my 1st impressions and an answer to your question:
  1. splashing commods is a slipperly slope. how long until we see the critical precious (optimal loadout) gear ingredient commods being splashed?**
  2. GM_Moll acknowledged the playerrun event in a number of TRI news articles
  3. the disguesting FS_Space display of trollbaiting and "antibannage" rants is worthy of Raiderr's best days on MG forums. pathetic, predictable and boring. (this is my one problem with the GMs; stupid moderation styles. flamebait should be seen instantly for what it is once read and not subject ot fucking ruleslawyer crap i've seen in the worst PnP RPG DMs
  4. GM sabotage of playerrun events is irrelevant - most playerrun events are complete garbage when it comes to OOC/IC disconnect. pathetic...even the vaunted OEC had problems. (i'm not privy to the *winkwinknudgenudge* bullshit commentary broadcast live, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the fuckin dots)
now then, off to your linkages.

...

final event? you gotta be fuckin kidding me. that's it???! I'm sorry if i'm treating you like a n00b, but that's just complete garbage. period. (actually, if you really were a n00b and not worthy of being curbstomped, i'd tell you that such a timeframe and such an outcome would be disproportionate to the amount of community involvement other than a select few "elitist pricks" who's bias would be IRRELEVANT - regardless about semantic drivel about how "final" it is. pffft)
    no matter how open and freespirited the blockade/counter was roleplayed and no matter how spontaneous it was intended, or it's outcome unknown, the short timespan is LUDICRUOUS - and i repeat for emphasis: no matter how many small event proceeded this "finality" pffffft

    (which is a sad commentary on most GM events apart from races and tame stuff like that)
your second link? hehe...ahaha...okay, let me get this straight. "people got mad"? hahaah...please explain to me the difference between player slashed commods and GM dumped commods? (please attempt layman terminology that doesn't confuse the average internet surfer. plzkthxdrvthru)

diclaimer: i'd like to thank you for posting your thoughts and welcoming my input. i hope my comments help to broaden your understanding of other points of view - specifically POV that get flamed if posted as "uneducated" (as i expect them to. why do you think i'm called a troll??!! i post stuff noone else dares to say because the bile and crap in reply is expected, regardless of how rational my kind of POV is)
    *shakes head* i blame neither the community nor TG. i do blame ND for attracting the griefers because of their game engine, a priori









** -- point being that splashing commods was always frowned upon. in this day and age of POS it becomes a temptation. I'm not gonna get hysterical and spout bullshit about n00b gear running out, i'm talking about a culture being built RIGHT IN THE LAST MONTH about casual commod splashing...i'm not really sure how much you care about the vigilante civ/bounty culture we have, nor am i clear on your interpretation of the HG/HG quake-in-space culture (i'm assuming you believe all these so called cultures of mine exist only in my feverish mind...as the others who call me troll do)
    i'm all for logistic shortages and haulage/trader opportunities, but to see it dependent on casual commod splashing just has me recoil in horror almost as much as 'inhibitor chip'...because, well, it is NO different than that. disclaimer: i'm only talking about the initial splashing; the facts about continuing splashing is irrelevant...this whole farce started A MONTH AGO. (being 1/3 reason i quit)...the fact is, this whole RP was based around casual commod splashing (it was interesting, and important but hardly what i'd call in the best of hands...but my personal opinion was immaterial. IT STILL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RP GOING...which is a really sad state of affairs. irony
slippery fucking slope, dude. *shrug* cya in about another month (or earlier if you seek to continue this 'argument/debate/conversation')
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
splashing commods is a slipperly slope. how long until we see the critical precious (optimal loadout) gear ingredient commods being splashed?


The (2k of cesium) commods was splashed while homed at an unreg station, which results in them not being insured.

Quote:
GM_Moll acknowledged the playerrun event in a number of TRI news articles


GM_Moll acknowledged the event, and played along in areas where it did not help us (fair enough - -100 aman pol was fine with me, as were enforcer attacks etc. Fit in well). In other areas she was completely obstructive - like trying to organise an end to the blockade which didn't involve us auto-losing.

Quote:
GM sabotage of playerrun events is irrelevant - most playerrun events are complete garbage when it comes to OOC/IC disconnect. pathetic...even the vaunted OEC had problems. (i'm not privy to the *winkwinknudgenudge* bullshit commentary broadcast live, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the fuckin dots)


*shrug* some people do have problems with the IC/OOC disconnect. The squad as a whole did not. While player run RP is problematic, it's also vastly more fun than most GM-run RPs (heyyy, wanna shoot some nukes at infests...AGAIN?). Player run RP, if it can be got right, is better than GM led RP. The ability to shape the storyline yourself is fundamentally more interesting than having it dictated to you. IMO, what we had was a step in the right direction.

Quote:
final event? you gotta be fuckin kidding me. that's it???! I'm sorry if i'm treating you like a n00b, but that's just complete garbage. period. (actually, if you really were a n00b and not worthy of being curbstomped, i'd tell you that such a timeframe and such an outcome would be disproportionate to the amount of community involvement other than a select few "elitist pricks" who's bias would be IRRELEVANT - regardless about semantic drivel about how "final" it is. pffft)

no matter how open and freespirited the blockade/counter was roleplayed and no matter how spontaneous it was intended, or it's outcome unknown, the short timespan is LUDICRUOUS - and i repeat for emphasis: no matter how many small event proceeded this "finality" pffffft

(which is a sad commentary on most GM events apart from races and tame stuff like that)


The total time the blockade ran was just over a month, if I recall. That's not exactly a short time. If you're talking about the total amount of time the event itself might take, then I'm afraid you are completely in the wrong. It's insanely hard to stop your enemies from killing a friendly loaded ship, as long as they are willing to die doing it. The convoy had to be loaded up and flown from GBS. To give an example, during the major Hyperial RP on EU, OV and allies had to kill several TRI shuttles before they made a dock at Hyp. These shuttles are vastly superior haulers to tows, and had many FFs and PWDs. All these shuttles had to do was dock. Despite being hideously outnumbered, OV's side won. Escorting against an enemy that doesn't mind dying to take it's target is HARD. Even with the numbers ISU had on the final night, the odds would have been against us.

Quote:
your second link? hehe.gife...ahaha...okay, let me get this straight. "people got mad"? hahaah...please explain to me the difference between player slashed commods and GM dumped commods? (please attempt layman terminology that doesn't confuse the average internet surfer. plzkthxdrvthru)


Sure.


  1. We only splashed 2k of cesium
  2. It was uninsured
  3. It is possible to get in game revenge on ISU for our actions - and make us agree not to do it again. The same is not true, it appears, of aman/sents.
  4. The volume of commodities dropped was massive - 10k each of cesium and phosphorous, along with loads of other stuff, that simply could not be generated with the number of PPs alledged to be destroyed. It should be noted that we did haul it all out.


Quote:
i'm all for logistic shortages and haulage/trader opportunities, but to see it dependent on casual commod splashing just has me recoil in horror almost as much as 'inhibitor chip'...because, well, it is NO different than that. disclaimer: i'm only talking about the initial splashing; the facts about continuing splashing is irrelevant...this whole farce started A MONTH AGO. (being 1/3 reason i quit)...the fact is, this whole RP was based around casual commod splashing (it was interesting, and important but hardly what i'd call in the best of hands...but my personal opinion was immaterial. IT STILL IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RP GOING...which is a really sad state of affairs. irony


There was no continued splashing. Beyond that 2k cesium, no further commods were splashed (except Seph petalled a couple of times....but he is always doing that ;) ). Everything was hauled out to GBS, including the dumped commods.

To use up cesium at the end of the RP when we believed that cesium production had in fact been turned off we fed it to gravs production in quant space.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*muffy starts to laff and doesn't stop for a very long time*

For the record, i believe commod cargo can only be uninsured if said pilot was negPR (regardless of unreg or not)
    fact is, i believe you were fed a pile of pure spindoctored pablum
I'm not trying to nitpick here, it just seems ludicruously funny you went out of your way to point out something that's been a rumour since beta...actually, it's been used as trollbait by not a few carebears too.

2k? that's 10million (IF uninsured using negPR pilot; not if just unreg)
    disregarding anything and simply assuming you folks used tows instead of freighters for simplicity, that's only 4 tow loads splashed. (/homing at an Aman, or near-POS, would be oh so easy to do)...heck, i'm not sure but i'm assuming public POS allow homing, right?

    Actually, i haven't a bloody clue why you bothered explaining just how those "2k" commods were splashed. starting to look like a deliberate 'red herring' to me, mate. I'm not sure about NORMAL cesium stock levels in the TRI universe, but i'm willing to bet ISU tows splashed all of it that day way back when. (pretty funny you actually fell for that old rumour about unreg = uninsured...course, now you'll come back and spin it into, "i actually meant <this>")

    WTF are you people unaware how sick and tired we are of spindoctoring? why even try the "uninsured"? ISU's squad stats indicate it's the 11th highest ranking in networth...just sounds like the biggest pile of 'red herring' ever.
now, dropping all the moral calculus, and sticking to what ACTUALLY happened, regardless of Ridgeway's notorious spinmachine, splashing commods occured as the basis of this "RP".




As for your IC/OOC chatter? that's great, but you know what? i'm going to quote something monosyllabic that's been uttered since day one: "why?" (and you know what? i'm willing to bet good ol' Ridgy & co don't really comprehend the question to even make up answers)
    evident by the complete lack of a decent IC/OOC answers to "why?" Dude, we weren't borne yesterday. All it boils down to is a pretty lazy and month long (pretty much successful) attempt to control FFs...period. That's not roleplay, that's powergaming
correction: you seem to be under the mistaken impression i don't know my arse from my brake pedal. Why did you explain the fine points of escorting? when i said the time frame, i meant the WARNING of said "final" event...hell, ANY event with that sort of timetable is why i berate TG for. jeezuz.
    FYI, i'm pretty sure you weren't part of US betatest nor heard of Gbob nor royofCA, but the former's "1st official event EVAR" was pretty much the worst scenario of escorting ever. (the latter's spindoctoring and whining pretty much sums up trolling at it's worst)...i actually have copies of said thread(s)...pretty funny
not to mention the stated consequences of said event. *shakes head*
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As fair as I am aware, cargo is uninsured *if you are homed at an unreg station*. If it is not, then a couple of people that I know have lost a large amount of cash to a bug. As I have previously said, if the commods were insured, I would be perfectly happy to pay the 10 mil to the relevent official.

Quote:
disregarding anything and simply assuming you folks used tows instead of freighters for simplicity, that's only 4 tow loads splashed. (/homing at an Aman, or near-POS, would be oh so easy to do)...heck, i'm not sure but i'm assuming public POS allow homing, right?

Actually, i haven't a bloody clue why you bothered explaining just how those "2k" commods were splashed. starting to look like a deliberate 'red herring' to me, mate. I'm not sure about NORMAL cesium stock levels in the TRI universe, but i'm willing to bet ISU tows splashed all of it that day way back when. (pretty funny you actually fell for that old rumour about unreg = uninsured...course, now you'll come back and spin it into, "i actually meant <this>")


No, we didn't. Cesium stock levels WERE at around 6k at the end of the RP. As I recall, at the start of the RP it was around 4k - some of which was splashed by us, some of which was distributed around the universe, and about 1000 of which was taken off GBS by other squads prior to being splashed. The reason for this relatively low amount of commods is that FF production eats cesium faster than it is produced at Aman. After the destruction of cesium refineries, this has been partially bunkered, and the rest used in gravs production on Quant stations. It wasn't hard to check the market lister at the time it was happening and note the large amount of cesium placed on Quant stations.

Quote:
splashing commods occured as the basis of this "RP"


I'm still wondering where you got that from. The RP could have gone ahead just as easily without the splashing of cesium - in fact, I'm confused as to why it was done in the first place, given that cesium is produced at aman and therefore cannot be blockaded. It's not the basis, in fact it's an irrelevent sideline.

Quote:
are you people unaware how sick and tired we are of spindoctoring? why even try the "uninsured"? ISU's squad stats indicate it's the 11th highest ranking in networth...just sounds like the biggest pile of 'red herring' ever.


I say uninsured, as it's a refutal of the statement made by many that ISU used an exploit to spash commods, as seen in FRG's attempt to control haven production.

You know, OV at one point was having to tow every night just to keep having enough money to make equip. Our net worth listed us as over 2 billion. The active members of ISU are (in general) not wealthy.

Quote:
As for your IC/OOC chatter? that's great, but you know what? i'm going to quote something monosyllabic that's been uttered since day one: "why?" (and you know what? i'm willing to bet good ol' Ridgy & co don't really comprehend the question to even make up answers)


I've been growing somewhat tired of answering this question, but here it is again:

Dual reasons. Firstly, to cut the supply of FFs to our enemies in the GVB war. Secondly, to gain recognition within TRI. If TRI chose to not confront us, we controlled the supply of FFs - an obvious advantage to us. If TRI chose to confront us, it was a show of force - showing that we had extremely significant strength. Either way, TRI would be forced to acknowledge our existence, and consider us as something more than a weak band of renegades. Eventually, ISU seeks GBS to be considered an independent state - if we're enough trouble to TRI they might just let us go.

In destroying the refinery, there were also two reasons. Firstly, to send a message to Amananth that we would not allow their interference with our campaign, anbd secondly a continuation of our extremely long term goal to boost the importance of space-bound mining rather than the planet bound ore produced, we believe, by shady methods.

Quote:
evident by the complete lack of a decent IC/OOC answers to "why?" Dude, we weren't borne yesterday. All it boils down to is a pretty lazy and month long (pretty much successful) attempt to control FFs...period. That's not roleplay, that's powergaming


Sorry, but you are totally uninformed on this issue. If spending many hours blockading an empty station over the course of a month, and many more hours towing (with escorts, of course) stuff out is lazy, I wonder at what you consider hard work is. Is hauling 20k of chems/phos out in an extremely short time lazy? You appear to be forgetting that I was there for a lot of this stuff. This was not just a peak time blockade. We had people on every day during off peak enforcing it, when frankly we would have preferred to be doing something else. You're telling me what happened, when I know and saw what happened.

Quote:
correction: you seem to be under the mistaken impression i don't know my arse from my brake pedal. Why did you explain the fine points of escorting? when i said the time frame, i meant the WARNING of said "final" event...hell, ANY event with that sort of timetable is why i berate TG for. jeezuz.


All numbers are variables. It's not like we aren't willing to change them. The idea itself is what's important. As it was, we gave 12 hours warning that we would be attacking Aman on the plot discussion forums.


Overall, all you're saying is that you don't trust my word. Fair enough, but frankly there's no point continuing a discussion when you'd rather believe your own conclusions based upon fairly minimal evidence, rather than the evidence of someone who was there, saw what happened, and was also active in the forums during that period.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicator wrote:
As fair as I am aware, cargo is uninsured *if you are homed at an unreg station*.

hmmm...i wonder if one of the FAQ's contains that info...iirc, we hadn't gotten word on that yet? *shakes head* Anyways, it's welcome info. thanks.
Quote:
Overall, all you're saying is that you don't trust my word. Fair enough, but frankly there's no point continuing a discussion when you'd rather believe your own conclusions based upon fairly minimal evidence, rather than the evidence of someone who was there, saw what happened, and was also active in the forums during that period.

And also highly subjective, i might add. you seem to ignore my main point/theme/context constantly...which is a sure sign you're evading. (of course i don't "trust you" as in "take you at face value")[list]i feel no need to say "white lies" or obfuscate...i'm obviously frustrated at the continual evasiveness (as are probably alot of lurkers who dare not post even the most polite comments...actually, they do)
    muffy wrote:
    splashing commods occured as the basis of this "RP"
    Nicator wrote:
    It's not the basis, in fact it's an irrelevent sideline.
    countless times by others wrote:
    why?

    Quote:
    I've been growing somewhat tired of answering this question, but here it is again

    The fact is ISU's RP started and revolved around commod splashing. You cannot merely shrug that aside as a publicity stunt, because it was handled so poorly when word got out - "IT" as in *IC justification* for the entire roleplay.

    hell! we still haven't seen the *IC justification* for the whole damn month, seeing as how there's still the "why?" posts. (in the vacuum of decent and rational justification for your roleplay, it naturally occurs that the publicity stunt becomes your 'waterloo')
      it ain't no walk in the park, buddy. ISU was seen as incompetent to deal with such large playerrun roleplays, but so was The_Tyke and his blockade misadventures so long ago...Hell, there's a long tradition of supremely FUBAR rp's
    *shrug* you fail (by your "muffy doesn't trust me" comment) to realize i've already said this "rp" is the most single important storyline in JG...disregarding this thread, i've actually said it more than once in multiple threads right before i quit.



    those reasons have been said countless times it's a mantra. why the countless "whys?" then? perhaps it's a subtle hint nobody buys that crap "dual" reasoning

    you think?


    Muffy wrote:
    evident by the complete lack of a decent IC/OOC answers to "why?" Dude, we weren't borne yesterday. All it boils down to is a pretty lazy and month long (pretty much successful) attempt to control FFs...period. That's not roleplay, that's powergaming
    Nicator wrote:
    Sorry, but you are totally uninformed on this issue. If spending many hours blockading an empty station over the course of a month, and many more hours towing (with escorts, of course) stuff out is lazy, I wonder at what you consider hard work is.

    Again, you insult my intelligence. OF COURSE YOU FOLKS WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ACTION FOR A MONTH! You're pretty good at the spindoctor game, eh? okay, to avoid the flamewar i'm going to CLARIFY something you seem to have forgotten in your endless QUOTE/SNIP/QUOTE barrage: the main theme for this thread is no matter how many times your squad has thrown up something you call *IC justification* doesn't make it so...the empirical evidence of so many "why?" backs up my argument. it's fact.
      look, will you puhleeeez remember what i said about the important of ISU's contribution and not get all pissy and defensive...it's just that your contribution is seen by alot of people (who don't care to get flamed to hell and back if they posted) as pretty much the way the entire server thought of other half-assed roleplays
    It could be so much better. How? Well, hell, boy! i don't get paid $50/hr psychoanalyizing people, so all i know is there's something missing...so do others who ask, "why?" countless times over the last month.

    it's not really ISU's fault. they're not expected to have 1st rate science fiction writers working for them to entertain the server...Problem is, TG doesn't exactly have unblemished hands in this affair...they're not Isaac Asimov material.

    lmao the irony is ISU rants at TG for being human. Gotta wonder how phat the egos are in ISU, eh? most of us fucking know the bullshit bias "some" of your friends in ISU are capable of. And they call me a troll? hahahahaa fuck. whata joke!



    Muffy wrote:
    correction: you seem to be under the mistaken impression i don't know my arse from my brake pedal. Why did you explain the fine points of escorting? when i said the time frame, i meant the WARNING of said "final" event...hell, ANY event with that sort of timetable is why i berate TG for. jeezuz.
    Nicator wrote:
    The idea itself is what's important. As it was, we gave 12 hours warning that we would be attacking Aman on the plot discussion forums.
    [list=1]
  • uh huh. the "idea itself"???? oh how very sophisticated of you. i'm sure ISU awarded itself for a gold star for effort for all your HARD WORK and ignoring the fact ideals and fuzzy logic don't make anything but a LAZY *ic justification*
  • 12 hours? are you like nuts or something?
jeezuz fucking christ, if this is your idea of a "reasoned debate" snipping apart my post and ignoring, misleading and generally butchering my point/theme/meaning then i'll be damned if i want you to reply, or listen if you do...it's just degrading and you'll probably just be a hypocrite and call me a troll.

I'll cya in about a month when you're calm enough to wonder what you actually missed and how you might have assuaged those countless and continuing "whys?" (personally, i don't really know, but i'd rather chat about stuff like that than play this disgusting game of quote/snip/quote semantic clarification)
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm perfectly calm, thanks. I rarely get genuinely irritated in a debate.

Heretic wrote:
And also highly subjective, i might add. you seem to ignore my main point/theme/context constantly


As far as I was aware, I was directly replying to you. If I was not, then it was due to misunderstadnding of your post.

Quote:
The fact is ISU's RP started and revolved around commod splashing. You cannot merely shrug that aside as a publicity stunt, because it was handled so poorly when word got out - "IT" as in *IC justification* for the entire roleplay.


Okay, I'm going to ask you the same question. "Why?". Why do you consider commod splashing the basis, the fundamental starting point of the RP? Given that the commod splashed was *produced at aman* it actually had no effect upon the blockade whatsoever.

Quote:
those reasons have been said countless times it's a mantra. why the countless "whys?" then? perhaps it's a subtle hint nobody buys that crap "dual" reasoning

you think?


Maybe, yet I've failed to see a single refutal of these reasons - from you, from anyone. This, to me, seems more likely to be a result of people not reading the entirety of the hideously long multi-thread flame wars. I can't really blame them, to be honest. As far as I can tell, the reasoning for starting the blockade is fairly rational.

Quote:
Again, you insult my intelligence. OF COURSE YOU FOLKS WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ACTION FOR A MONTH! You're pretty good at the spindoctor game, eh?


*shrug* I misinterpreted what you meant by 'lazy'. In this case you meant 'lazy RP justification' rather than 'implemented in a lazy fashion'.

Quote:
the main theme for this thread is no matter how many times your squad has thrown up something you call *IC justification* doesn't make it so...the empirical evidence of so many "why?" backs up my argument. it's fact.


No, it's conjecture. It's your interpretation of the reason behind a fact. I have a different interpretation, as seen above. Since it is clearly possible to REASONABLY interpret in multiple ways, it is not a fact.

Quote:
uh huh. the "idea itself"???? oh how very sophisticated of you. i'm sure ISU awarded itself for a gold star for effort for all your HARD WORK and ignoring the fact ideals and fuzzy logic don't make anything but a LAZY *ic justification*


You appear to be proceeding upon the idea that ISU wanted to do something, and THEN thought up the reasoning behind it - which is incorrect. If we wanted to grief the server, or hell just do something different we could have thought up a somewhat more interesting way to do it that didn't involve sitting around getting bored for large periods of time.

Quote:
12 hours? are you like nuts or something?


Not really. PvP squads are, as a whole, fairly organised compared to non-pvp ones (this is just based on my observations having been a part of several of both). 12 hours is usually enough time for a PvP squad to get it's act together - it was certainly never a problem in OV.

Quote:
jeezuz fucking christ, if this is your idea of a "reasoned debate" snipping apart my post and ignoring, misleading and generally butchering my point/theme/meaning then i'll be damned if i want you to reply, or listen if you do...it's just degrading and you'll probably just be a hypocrite and call me a troll.


I snip apart posts so that I can reply to each point in turn, not to change the meaning. If the meaning is changed, then it is a result of me misunderstanding the structure of your post, not an intentional disregard for your overall point.

To be honest, your initial post on the warcry site was basically trolling. You went in and posted without even having read the vast majority of the history behind the event, and items such as:

Quote:
You're telling me that a few trolls can just make shit up about GM's NOT doing this and that and you take them at face value?


Were what gave me that opinion. You accused ISU or "a few trolls" of lying. No evidence to back it up, nada. You then continued with:

Quote:
When the HELL did the forum trolls ever acknowledge that RP was of any value to them until TG became the target du jour? Personally, i think most of the "naysayers" pooping in their hands and throwing at Moll are sexist, racist pigs.


While I agree that some of the people posting have shown little interest in RP in the past, plenty have as well. Then, you make a further baseless accusation.

If returning to a community that you've been away from for a month, on aa server you haven't played for many months, calling people trolls, and accusing them of lying without a shred of evidence to back it up is not trolling, it's certainly close to it.
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Chief WO4


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obviously ISU is happy with their *IC justification*
obviously you're happy with it
anyone with a different "interpretation" is seen as scattered, confused and uneducated...or trolls.

As far as my "trolling" about ISU lying without giving specific reference? I could do so with a little effort, but you'd just laff it off as them either being *IC* or attempt to pass it off as a "white lie" or any of a hundred different spindoctor techniques...I do like that "interpretation" quip though. (very droll and disingenuous.)
    one cannot 'interpret' what ISN'T there, and quite plainly (from the numerous and constant, "why?" posts - as in one word posts) there's something seriously missing from ISU's *IC justification* that leaves most of the "uneducated" scratching their heads.
unfortunately, it looks like my "post structure" is so flawed that any headway is lost in the semantic clarification. Look, i'm no carebear and appreciate PvP squads rocking the boat (so to speak) but quite a few of us don't trust ISU farther than we can throw them. The constant whining about TG's botched involvement (and lack thereof of decent feedback/etc) doesn't endear ISU to the community who don't happen to wear tutu's and pompoms...point is ISU's botched involvement (and lack thereof of decent feedback/etc) doesn't endear ISU to the community either.
    you guys (and perhaps a few gals) have long had a reputation for "conjecture" and "interpretation" when it came to how well your squad represents the crosssection of JG's community.
BTW FYI, "conjecture" is guesswork. i'm getting rather tired of your constant evasion of empirical fact. ISU is known to lie (white lies, grey lies and flat out black lies)
    then there's statistics
ISU is also known to have an overinflated opinion of their RP abilities which, to the majority of folk who have a freakin clue, looks like plain powergaming over roleplay with no consideration for IC/OOC disconnect. (we're talking empirical fact here, mate)
    conjecture, my arse!
I don't make "baseless accusations"...it's all there on the forums. you can spin all you want, but i call a spade a spade. Sometimes i wish TG wasn't so "by the book" and literal cause from what i see JG's community has turned into a bunch of ruleslawyers.

oh, sweetie, you did post something really funny:
Nicator wrote:
If you want to see an outline of the original proposal for the final event, look on the warcry forums: http://forums2.warcry.com/flat_read.phtml?f=44&id=10046&thread=10046
Bear in mind that it's only an initial proposal, so I have few doubts you'll be able to poke holes in it.
Muffy wrote:
final event? you gotta be fuckin kidding me. that's it???! I'm sorry if i'm treating you like a n00b, but that's just complete garbage. period. (actually, if you really were a n00b and not worthy of being curbstomped, i'd tell you that such a timeframe and such an outcome would be disproportionate to the amount of community involvement other than a select few "elitist pricks" who's bias would be IRRELEVANT - regardless about semantic drivel about how "final" it is. pffft)

no matter how open and freespirited the blockade/counter was roleplayed and no matter how spontaneous it was intended, or it's outcome unknown, the short timespan is LUDICRUOUS - and i repeat for emphasis: no matter how many small event proceeded this "finality" pffffft

(which is a sad commentary on most GM events apart from races and tame stuff like that)
Nicator wrote:
The total time the blockade ran was just over a month, if I recall. That's not exactly a short time. If you're talking about the total amount of time the event itself might take, then I'm afraid you are completely in the wrong. It's insanely hard to stop your enemies from killing a friendly loaded ship, as long as they are willing to die doing it. The convoy had to be loaded up and flown from GBS. To give an example, during the major Hyperial RP on EU, OV and allies had to kill several TRI shuttles before they made a dock at Hyp. These shuttles are vastly superior haulers to tows, and had many FFs and PWDs. All these shuttles had to do was dock. Despite being hideously outnumbered, OV's side won. Escorting against an enemy that doesn't mind dying to take it's target is HARD. Even with the numbers ISU had on the final night, the odds would have been against us.
Muffy wrote:
correction: you seem to be under the mistaken impression i don't know my arse from my brake pedal. Why did you explain the fine points of escorting? when i said the time frame, i meant the WARNING of said "final" event...hell, ANY event with that sort of timetable is why i berate TG for. jeezuz.
Nicator wrote:
All numbers are variables. It's not like we aren't willing to change them. The idea itself is what's important. As it was, we gave 12 hours warning that we would be attacking Aman on the plot discussion forums.
muffy wrote:
uh huh. the "idea itself"???? oh how very sophisticated of you. i'm sure ISU awarded itself for a gold star for effort for all your HARD WORK and ignoring the fact ideals and fuzzy logic don't make anything but a LAZY *ic justification*
Nicator wrote:
You appear to be proceeding upon the idea that ISU wanted to do something, and THEN thought up the reasoning behind it - which is incorrect. If we wanted to grief the server, or hell just do something different we could have thought up a somewhat more interesting way to do it that didn't involve sitting around getting bored for large periods of time.


I didn't say that, you did. thanks for denying it. methinks thou doth protest too much. perhaps a little history lesson perhaps?
Quote:
Originally posted by DvineShado
Let me rephrase: Why?
ISU spindoctor wrote:
OOC: I'm sure Ridgeway will answer that when he's ready.

moo


oh, and i'm so happy you have a thick skin. i'm so happy you're okay with continuing to QUOTE/SNIP/QUOTE. Sure helps you avoid wondering what lessons ISU might be missing in the RP department, eh?
wtg
personally, i do suggest we start musing about what "might" be missing from ISU's fabled RP dept. rather than your seeming love of QUOTE/SNIP/QUOTE...do you realize it's pretty much illegal on most sane forums?


and when i say "semantic clarification" that's not a compliment
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Nicator
First Sergeant
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Joined: 10 Nov 2002
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen a forum where quote/snip/quote is even remotely frowned upon. It's efficient, it's direct, and used properly brings a discussion down to the arguments at hand, rather than muddying the water with evasive phraseology. It's easy to confuse an 'opponent' with wording. It's harder to actually answer their points directly.

As for lying, everyone lies *occasionally*. I have little doubt that you could bring up a reference of me or anyone else saying something incorrect. That means little towards the specific accusation of lying in this specific instance.

I know exactly what conjecture means. This was what you were providing; guesswork based upon evidence that was frail at best.

Quote:
I didn't say that, you did. thanks for denying it. methinks thou doth protest too much. perhaps a little history lesson perhaps?


Uh, actually you did say it. Your repeated use of the phrase "ic justification" implies that you believe that we decided what (OOCly) to do, and then worked out an IC 'cover'. Again, if I've misinterpreted what you meant, I'm sorry. Your posts can be mildly impenetrable at times ;).

As for the history lesson, what on earth is that for? All that was meant there was that Ridgeway had yet to issue an official statement.


Again, I see you running into a severe dislike of quote/snip/quote. Why? All it does is ensure that I reply to all your points as well as I am able. At least I do you the courtesy of that, rather than, for example, ignoring elements like

Quote:
Okay, I'm going to ask you the same question. "Why?". Why do you consider commod splashing the basis, the fundamental starting point of the RP? Given that the commod splashed was *produced at aman* it actually had no effect upon the blockade whatsoever.


You've also failed to back your allegation of sexism and racism.
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Heretic
Chief WO4
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Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes. i'm just making all this up. cya. haha.


*runs off to hit 'refresh' on the hw2 demo site*
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