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United Mining Exploration Commission: A group of friends playing JumpGate-- "a MMORPG that launched smoothly, breaks from fantasy character setting, emphasizes PvP, and is the first persistent world space simulator that nobody talks about." ~Scorch
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Absolete nonconsentual PvP prejudice

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your opinion of this?
hmmmm you are making to much sense you must me destroyed
 20%  [ 1 ]
You have stated what alot of people in the game are thinking.
 20%  [ 1 ]
If we wanted real life aggrevations, we wouldn't be playing computer games.
 0%  [ 0 ]
muffy's view: (old quote) then there's the people who play the total asshole they can't in RL
 60%  [ 3 ]
troll view: STFU! RTFM, n00b!!!
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 5

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:05 am    Post subject: Absolete nonconsentual PvP prejudice Reply with quote

thread's reason for existence has come to an end. (if you want to view the posts, simply quote them and read it in the box you normally use to post your own text.)
    don't feel like deleting anything, because the points of view are still valuable to me. as archives

quote="Bacci_Galu"]'s a fricken game!

You know, I've been trolling the threads for a while now, putting in my two cents or wisecracking here and there...sometimes I may even post something useful. What I have been seeing a lot lately (and I know I'm stating the obvious...but I do have a point) is pilots whining bout this and squalking about that and why don't they fix this and there's too much of that. It's beginning to look like JG Space is populated by a bunch of spoiled, prima donna, whiney, self-important wankers. I mean come ON. This is supposed to be a role playing game. Supposed to be taking place in a section of a galaxy that is not at all tame. We are supposed to be people trying to make lives for ourselves in conditions that are not entirely hospitable...we are not living in a micro managed government state. It's more like a high tech 13th century. Yes there is free enterprise, yes there are people that will take advantage of the system, yes there are criminals, yes there are misunderstandings and feuds but there are means to combat these. Welcome to the real world in a game. Sure, it would be nice if I could mine, haul, transport without worry of attack and for the most part, I can. But just like in the real world, there are uncertainties. I can get rolled just like anyone else if I'm not careful. I can get a flat on the highway and feel like life is just turning against me, but that's just's life. I can't complain and whine and spout about the injustice of everyday life and think some one will say, "You're right...let me fix it...and while I'm at it, I'll trick out your car, and lower the price of bread, reduce your house payment and shine your shoes, too." Well, maybe I can whine, but who the Hell would listen or care...would you? 'Jeez, man, that's rough...too bad...well, back to my life.'

This game is like life, it's dynamic, it's unpredictable, and it's uncontrollable. I would not want to play it if everything lined up neatly into rows and marched lock-step before me. That's like playing with Game Genie...where's the fun and challenge in that? The freedom to forge your own path is both exciting and not without risk.

So when someone rips you, rip them back, or go to your squad for help. If someone is matter farming, unload your cargo, screw 'em, they hafta take chances too. When was the last time you unloaded stock and asked the magnate if it was OK first because you didn't want him to take a hit? If you head into unreg, be prepared to take your life into your own hands. Just like if you decide to wander into a back alley in some run down section of town, you make your own choices, you know what can happen...stop crying about it. Organize a neighborhood watch if you want. STOP WHINING! IT'S A GAME!!! Better yet, grab the person you love the most, get ripped and tear one off on the front lawn with everyone watching. THAT would be better than pie.

Anyway, I have ranted enough...I really dig this game and everyone who plays it. Each person has their own bent on how they wanna play...hey, it's their ten bucks. The means are available to put the criminals in their place, to put the monopolists in their place, the gankers in their place...just stop whining. Role play...that is the key.

Like they say, Shit Happens.
Like the Kid says, "Life's a bitch, but I deal with it."
And like my man, Scram Jones says, "I say, Live it or live with it."

OK...flame's all good. [/quote]

Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:42 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote="Adara"]Personally, I see two things that contribute to some of what you've talked about.

First, the fact that there are people who have played this game since beta or the beginning of retail, and new people who pick it up every day. What does that mean? Well, for one thing, those who have been around longer are more likely to harbor grudges for something that was done to them, or something that was done in general, 'back when we were in EEA' or whatever (insert appropriate time period here). While I *do* understand the game is dynamic, having such things go on *does*, in my opinion, contribute to people getting upset about something they perceive as 'lame' or 'underhanded' - if the person who did it to them has done really stupid things in the past, they sort of hold on to that.

Secondly, though, the fact that there are newer people means that they may NOT know what is expected/standard within the community. Perhaps they don't know that if they go into unreg, anyone can kill them. More importantly, what if they don't know what's expected of them?? I've been dumped on in DX just like everyone else, but that doesn't mean that the person who does it does so intentionally - it was a long time before I knew how to tell if a flux was 'on me', or even that the concept existed. So... it would probably help if people try to logically explain things when someone truly seems new.

I think that the second problem right now is simple frustration. Not so much for a lack of end goal, but because so many people were and have been planning for EP2 and some of its features for a long time.. there is relative peace in the universe (heh), and a lot of people frustrated that certain things haven't been fixed, etc, etc. I think that when EP2 (or some parts of it, perhaps??) truly starts to be implemented, it will help.

I don't necessarily agree with the 'lack of goal' portion of what you said, I don't think... I guess, though, it would depend on where you are or what you've accomplished in game already. For a lot of people, the current goal is to reach opti.. for others, it's to do all the things you mentioned. If you lack a goal in game, perhaps you should look at RP? In a continuous, dynamic game like this, you can't expect to 'get to that one big battle at the end' to finish the game off - an online universe can't work that way. So.. people should look to make their own goals to keep the game dynamic and fun FOR THEM.

I'm a little newer than a lot of people here, so take it for what it's worth [/quote]

Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote="Mulligan"]Firstly. You are a part of a massively MULTIPLAYER online game. Too many people take the attitude of a player in a single player game in Jumpgate and that's the source of many problems. In a single player game you ARE the centre of the universe. Everything revolves around you and you, ultimately, are responsible for any effect you might have on the game universe. However, any impact you do have has no far reaching effects other than possibly having to reload the game from the last save. You take the same attitude in a MMOG and things start to fuck up in a big way. You are NOT the centre of the universe, you're just a small part of it. Every other individual you meet in the universe has EXACTLY the same right to the universe and has to deal with EXACTLY the same impact of their actions as you do. Period. As such, you have to play by the rules of the universe and accept the fact that your behaviour has long lasting consequences. Otherwise, you have no right playing in that multiplayer game. As soon as you start to view yourself as better, superior or somehow more important than your FELLOW players, you have no right playing in that multiplayer game. Consent, respect for your equals and a belief in self responsibility are essential. If you can't see that, don't waste your time and the time of people that genuinely want to ENJOY the game.

Secondly. You subscribe to a service. You have no more right to dictate to your service provider how they run their company than you can your ISP what routers they use. Sure, you can make recommendations. If you don't like what your service provider has to say or the way they conduct themselves then, as a CONSUMER you have one powerful tool: choice. In short, if you don't like their attitude then change service provider. So less of the "we pay your wages, you have to listen to us" bullshit, eh?

What is everyone's problem? Willy is being lame. QS are defending him. OV are gankers. Muffy trolls too much. Episode 2 is late. The GMs are biased. TDP is civripping. So what? Even if there is truth to any of that (truth being ultimately subjective anyway) what's the problem? Do something about [insert reason here] if it's that big an issue; you're a community - start acting like one. Almost everyone who's going to bother to read this started playing JG because it was a fun game they really enjoy. So where's that magic gone? Nowhere. The game hasn't changed (and shit, Ep2 isn't going to change it much either - it's still going to be JG at its core) - the players have. Now someone explain to me where we've gone wrong, please. Because I can't see it.

// rantoff[/quote]

Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:22 pm    Post subject: The Zero Sum Game? or a Cliche? Reply with quote

this thread's theme has been destroyed. destroyed by the simple fact that 99.9% of MMOG customers have stated time and time again with their wallets -- JG's attitude that "nonconsentual pvp" as the very basis for MMOG is bullshit (ie. when you do this, it affects that which affects someone else no matter how noncombatant the activity was = nonconsentual pvp)
    let me repeat: that's total's an illogician tactic called, "non sequitur" jumpgate's community dynamics is NOT a zero sum game
yes, i do believe that MMOG is about community. what i don't believe (anymore) is that MMOG community = competition = PvP = nonconsentual.

why do i believe this? BECAUSE 99.9% of MMOG customers won't touch a game where anyone could shoot them down anywhere at anytime.

I believe that our population base (which has kept equilibrium for years between 25slowest - 300peak) is a fraction of what it could be.

Now, i'm not calling for 'inhibitor chip' because at the rate the rabid PvPers are pushing the patch priorities it's gonna be inevitable...Hell, i see the writing on the wall, folks, and it ain't pretty. (though the rabid pvpers will be overjoyed if the population booms by a factor of 100...they'll get a devoted red server, won't they? how cute. what the always fucking planned on getting anyways, bastards)
    as for the recent EU talk of MG considering making KOSretaliation.Vs.TRAPs=griefing? i'm all for it.
i've had enough of posting crap about how MMOG=nonconsentual...if you want to see me support "nonconsentual pvp" you'll have to check out the IC/OOC roleplaying FAQs

oh yes, nonconsentual pvp (in all it's RP forms) plays an important aspect in a MMOG - but, i refuse to see it as the very basis of play

Charmaka wrote:
Oh, I think I follow you now. You're asserting that an MMORPG is what the majority of the people playing them think it is, rather than what logic suggests it ought to be?

okie dokie. what does logic state?

i'll tell you what logic isn't. logic isn't filled with "non sequiturs", okay sunshine? That you do something in a MMOG which affects something which has an effect on someone != nonconsentual pvp (ie. non-sequitur; it. does. not. follow.)
    there is nonconsentual pvp in JumpGate, yes. Unfortunately, JG fanatics have too long insisted this is the basis (the root) of all MMOGs. IT. DOES. NOT. FOLLOW.
The fact that the majority of the population IRL who play GAMES of the genre MMOG find JumpGate's belligerent take on "what is the basis of JumpGate" to be, quite frankly, irrational illogical and flat out crazed.

nicator wrote:
Traditional MMOG customers, maybe. Like it or not, Jumpgate is different to most MMOGS, and has a different playerbase. An artifact, I would assume, of virtually everything in the game being skill dependent. There's little challenge inherent in most MMOGs apart from having enough time to play them. Why would you play for the competition? In Jumpgate, virtually everything is a challenge. Playing for the competition is perfectly possible.

In reality, of course, it's a mix. I play for the community, _and_ for the competitve aspect. I wouldn't continue playing for long if either aspect was removed - FPS games don't really appeal to me, for their lack of community feel. Traditional MMOGsalso don't appeal to me, because there's little inherent challenge.

nicator: dude, i've been hearing that for fact, i believed that for over a year. I don't anymore. why? i'll say it differently this time cause i'm tired of cut*pasting the same post over and over...

our population base has never grown beyond what it's been in beta. (hasn't dropped significantly either) - that cannot be normal. I speculate our niche market of "risk, joystick & sci-fi" has an upper limit of about 100 times our current population.)
    that translates to 30000 at peak right?
now. i ask myself after years why the population base refuses to budge...and i finally realized that this thread's raison d'etre was a step, finally, in the right direction. A direction that may just give us an effective RoC that isn't an inevitable 'inhibitor chip'

mark my words, if you guys & gals continue to repeat your dogma that JG is based on pvp you'll eventually reach a point where all you have left is the lowest common denominator: the that point i believe ND will code 'inhibitor chip' and you'll realize you just pissed away JG's potential in thread like these.

:clap: yeah! look on the bright side! once blue servers come into existence you'll get your red servers! weeeeee happy happy! (i'll be long gone by then. yuck)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it makes you feel any better, I can think of little more dull than a pvp-only server.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, thanks for confirming my hope you weren't some crazed lunatic. 8P

*shrug* I'm actually interested in how my new POV on nonconsentual pvp (ie. not inherent to everything MMOG in some form or another) will work with my belief that nonconsentual pvp is an important part of JG...and how that might inspire me to evolve some ideas that might help prevent the doomsday scenario.

personally, this new POV i have is alot more powerful than that tired old cliche about how JG is geared to the end product of PvP. (can't recall the exact quote)
    PvP is the ultimate "zero sum game"'s just so simplistic an argument it's seductive, yet ultimately flawed if applied to JG 'across the board' (you know what i mean: PvP as an abstract concept - competition/conflict)
hey! you know all those "other" things you mentioned in that bulleted list? ask yourself how much work ND & MG have done to improve the situation since beta6...and what's the one thing that hasn't changed? That's right, the Player population. (it's stayed almost exactly the same since beta6)
    process of elimination is how i came to the conclusion that Jg="community"=just another MMOG (you know what i mean: the abstract concept of WHY we all play MMOGs)...again, the process of elimination. What's unique about a MMOG, ipso facto, is it's community. and conflict is the last thing community stands for it follows/therefore that the basis/abstract of any MMOG cannot possibly be conflict/competition...even JG
that "retaliation" thread's topic...isn't that a watershed change of heart? Just look at it's implications if KOSforTRAPusage = griefing in the RoC. (the implications of MG's change of heart towards the very function of something of one pilot affecting another being not worthy of reciprocal action)
    bloody hell, man. I wasn't the one to broach this subject, it was MG! Hell, i went into that thread thinking MG would never change. They saw the writing on the wall better than i did. Hell, i was contributing to the inevitability of 'inhibitor chip' by believing JG = nonconsentual pvp at it's base.
*shrug* I dunno...all this insane stuff happening on the US server really destroyed my illusions over "self-policing" and our "informal community code of honour"...i guess that and the "retaliation" thread pushed me over the edge.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Originally posted by JustinBeam
But if the pirate comes back or sends his mates to find the trader asap, announces his revenge in an obvious RP style and kills the trader then, this is no grief kill for me. It is a well roleplayed civkill then.
eeeehhhhh...yes and no.
  • Yes, because some folk don't need "RP" to know that pirate's gonna get one or two licks in (they don't need to be reminded) - they wouldn't complain that the RoC, if changed, forbids it.
  • Maybe, because some folk feel an "obvious RP style" is needed to *IC justify* a nonconsentual pvp incident.
  • No, because a trap really isn't a nonconsentual pvp attack on the pirate: Pirate consented to the probability of suiciding.
That third point, i'm starting to realize, is what the majority of MMOG players (and potential JG customers) believe....heck, that's why MG created that RoC. (i mean, heck! if it was up to folks like you and me, Justin, there probably wouldn't be an RoC)
    you ever looked at it? it's horribly worded compared to the "unofficial community code" on what's considered bad form
i'm just starting to realize that "unofficial community code" doesn't need some of the prejudices it's collected as dogma.
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