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Pirates 101

 
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Is there is honor among thieves?
I don't like pirate RP period. (actually, i don't like RP period)
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Hey. Whatever game you wanna play that's fine, just don't expect me to play the "bitch"
33%
 33%  [ 3 ]
The pvp coding say's it's cool to kick'em when they're down
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
things need to improve code-wise before there's honor in PvP. period.
33%
 33%  [ 3 ]
guess so, that's how the proverb's worded. (probably laced with irony)
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9

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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 12:45 am    Post subject: Pirates 101 Reply with quote

jacraven wrote:
To me it seems piracy here is being used as an excuse to kill, the aim with piracy shoud always be to get the money


Disclaimer: There's a slight distinction between pirate scum versus privateer. since this is a n00b FAQ (sort of) i'm going to lump them both under "pirate"
Best article on piracy i've found wrote:
Privateers were men armed with a letter of marque who looted and pillaged in the name of their country; therefore their actions were condoned. Perfect examples of these mercenaries were men like Frances Drake and Henry Morgan, both of whom were so successful they received knighthood from the crown. Later Morgan actually became the lieutenant governor of Jamaica.

Privateers had an appointed captain; where as, pirates elected theirs with a majority vote, and he could be ousted just as easily by another vote. Although there was a line between privateers and pirates, it was more often a thin one and sometimes nearly indistinguishable. Admiral Horatio Nelson was quoted as saying "...the conduct of all privateers is, as far as I have seen, so near piracy that I only wonder how any civilized nation can allow it."

In later years, during the coming of the 'Golden Age of Piracy', countries were beginning to find peace which made it difficult for privateers to make their living. The loss of their letter of marque was, in fact, one of the major reasons piracy flourished in this period. Men used to reaping the rewards of looting, often making several hundred pounds a voyage, did not wish to go back to the life of making ten pounds a year. Many of these men were in the Royal Navy before becoming pirates. They left to escape the harsh punishments inflicted by their officers.


<<<<<artist homepage. cool stuff>>>>>>
a warning beforehand. the below individual was a known colleague of that "hated" "griefer" Rollio. (ie. #1 kill stat padder around; by hook or crook)
    in other words, the code of conduct posted below should be taken in the light of that old old saying, "There is honor among thieves" (yes that's the correct saying) It's all about reputation on this persistent online universe, and the best spindoctor alive will charge a hefty fee for his :2c:

    I post this because the one thing Rollio was consistent for was being careful about his reputation. Seeing as how Morgan flew with him lots, i'm giving the same credit to him i would Rollio. (truth to tell i've never once personally witnessed Rollio grief kill, and i'm sure he knew it regardless of the shitty opinion most vocal pvpers have of me)
CptMorgan wrote:
Pirating rules of the road
OK, since many people have many differing opinions on how pirates act and should act, I would like to clear up some misnomers if I could. I know not all pirating posts are related directly to Pay or Die, however many are, and being one of the larger and more successful pirating squads (arguable considering the money we lose dying bountied) I would like to address these concerns.

First off, we are a squad that honors our political positions as well as our squad rules. In our rules, it states that any person who is pirated (and pays) is free from pirating again within 24 hours. We usually ask each other if we see someone and wonder if they are ok to pirate, or post it on our forums. If you are being pirated for the second time within 24 hours, a simple "XXXX pirated me already" will suffice. We typically will take your word for it if they are not online. However, if we find out you were lying, we will not be so kind to you in the future. As far as NAPs go, anyone can negotiate one, but usually Tritian is the man to speak with. Prices can be high, but such is tha nature of our business.

Second, how we pirate is usually pretty clear. Our first words are something along the lines of telling you to cut your engines. We don't want you running while we are pirating. We usually do not fire first, and we make multiple requests to cut your engines before doing so. However, if after a few attempts are made and you do not comply, you will be killed. Also, if you fire on us (if we happen to be flying with a bounty or you are HG) you will also be killed. Once shots are fired, you rarely can get us to stop firing in return (I usually don't pay attention to my chat logs). We will not go into the debate about what HG tags mean, but if you are flying HG, we may or may not pirate you, since HG typically means you are willing and able to fight. The pilot can choose such. Usually if the victim is outnumbered, and PoD will be offered.

Lastly, please don't make false claims such as we are griefers, stat padders, or lamers. We DO issue PoD's on ALL ships... intensities, tows, miners, scouts, rangers, etc. Tags are of no concern to us. Faction space is of no concern to us. Also, we are fair in our PoD's. As stated by Tritian in another post, if it is sufficiently safe, we will check JOSSH, or have a squadmate check JOSSH for pilot stats. For an empty, known "wealthy" victim, usually a 200-250k PoD is issued. If a ship is running heavy or artied, the victim has a higher interest in seeing they arrive safely at their destination, so PoD's may be higher. If it is a medium level, or even a higher level, who has a very low bank roll, a lower sum may be asked. I have asked as low as 100 credits. I also had a low level miner bargain with a squaddie for a PoD. You DO have a choice as to whether you live or die. That's what a PoD is. Pay or Die, to my knowledge, as never received a payment and then ripped a victim. That is not us. We try to abide by our "Pirate Code" if you wish. There are circumstances in which people are ripped without a PoD, however there is usually an explanation. The victim was actively bounty hunting, was carrying "illegal" equipment (ie. morningstars) and others as well. Trust when I tell you, as a pirate, I would rather get paid when I PoD you than have to fight and kill you. There is no guarantee I would win (depending on the victim) and I need some way to make up my losses while dying bountied.

Not all "pirates" follow these rules, some may not even have rules. But those who know us, know our RP is as a true pirate squad. You may claim we only pirate sols, however our current system lacks the desire to take a home faction bounty. Remember, pirates are money hungry, not stupid. Downing a pilot who refuses to pay is simply flexxing our muscles to show you we mean business. After all, who is going to pay a pirate who says "Pay me or I will let you go free of consequence"?

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CptMorgan
The Captain was here!
  • There are some out there who refuse to negotiate with Pirates (incharacter and outofcharacter) whether or not the pirates attempt Roleplaying or not...this is the sort that will crash their ship instead of fighting & dying.
  • There are some out there, like me, who will negotiate with pirates if it's roleplayed well. (ie. someone does a decent job of catching me unawares and uses better language than, "PoD!!!")...of course, i hardly ever had encounters with pirates and the one time i did i managed to elude Doc_Holiday (sp?) via some nice combat docking. *shrug*
  • There are some out there who have negotiated squad protection rackets, to use the vernacular.
  • There are some out there who retaliate and are engaged in squad warfare with pirates.
  • There are some out there who are left alone by reputation alone (ie. pirate suppliers and friends)
  • And there are some out there a bit clueless to bounty rules and the dangers of retaliation against civ tagged pirates. For that bunch i'd suggest you read the sticky thread in this forum about PvP rules 101.

    as for what i personally think of pirate tactics and "rules of conduct"? let's just say i don't believe there can be "honor among thieves", especially this stupid rule about MS being "illegal". WTF is that supposed to mean? Anyways, morgan wrote a cool post which i consider *IC* (incharacter) and hopefully entertaining/educational read for the rest of us. Let me reiterate i have very low expectations for pirate behavior regardless of their spindoctoring just because the rules of PvP encourage griefing
Groucho Marx wrote:
The trouble with writing a book about yourself is that you can't fool around. If you write about someone else, you can stretch the truth from here to Finland. If you write about yourself the slightest deviation makes you realize instantly that there may be honor among thieves, but you are just a dirty liar.

P.S. for an old thread archived about PayOrDie FAQ go here (page 2)

The truth? well, we can't handle the truth. (it's counter-intuitive) I've pretty much hashed it out in that PvP rules 101 sticky thread, along with a suggestion to repair the situation visa-vis "kick'em when they're down" syndrome.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:19 pm; edited 11 times in total
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Zero0
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know but in my opinion anyone who kills just because they can is a waste of oxygen or space or whatever else you can think of.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

since this is a privateer FAQ, i'll explain what i know is the proper "PoD" to request. Let's start with an assumption. That assumption will be my basis for the equation. The assumption is that privateers will target matter farmers because that's where the profit is. So a load of MC's costs the tow pilot somewhere around 300million credits. There, Now let's take the standard "popular" PoD fee of 240k and apply this to get some constant. Naturally it seems that 0.08% of a pilots networth would be the constant.

So what does that give you in return? Naturally this equates to ~0.003% networth per hour for a "protection racket"...If a privateer violates that time limit they get a reputation as a pirate - or kills the victim after payment. big no no! Doesn't mean yer a ban happy griefer, per se. Just means noones gonna pay you once word gets around. Reputation is a double edged sword. Now, this is of course self-defeating for privateers to ask multibillionaires for million credit PoDs. Talk about escort career right there, so there is a stated maximum of 250k; Might be more depending, but usually never a million and usually that's negotiated into week long deals for entire squads

Anyways, this all assumes the privateers have enough rep to make this happen...Most squad retaliate *IC* or ignore privateers *OOC*. Some to the point of self-destruction,

So, if you're a low level with about, say, 300000cr to your name and someone asks you for 250k as a PoD, please start calling them pirate scum if you like RP, or just ignore them *OOC*. (it's your game, your choice)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zer0: Yeah, doing a little bit of thought into why you said that i remembered my olde thread about RL pirate history (and edited in a disclaimer at the top of my first post)
    To you and me, griefers are pirates are griefers. really doesn't matter much either way, Rollio being the infamous example. (we feared and respected him)
There does need to be a distinction though and that's knowing which are unworthy of respect. I think Rollio's conduct, outside the singleminded kill stat padding context, allows us to paint a picture of what behavior doesn't warrant a ban happy griefer reputation.
  1. *IC* target preferences. (when rollio was Octavian in Beta6 he and his squad first attacked Sols and then Quantars; when rollio was Quantar in the Stresstest he was a serial killer of solrains; and in release rollio was Solrain and targetted Quantars)
  2. Reluctance to engage in flame wars like so many squadies do. (rollio's posting style was biased in it's own way - anything to help him gank things efficiently - but at least he engaged in debate and never responded to trolling)
  3. Lack of pottymouth behavior on ingame channels, AFAIK (sources i trust say he cried like a baby when he died, but i suppose that's understandable knowing his M.O.)
  4. When you paid up a "protection racket" fee he always honored it, AFAIK
  5. Never known of a reliable instance where he griefed an actual n00b, AFAIK
Honestly, i've seen good friends quit because Rollio took them out on a whim just to up his kill stats...for that alone i wish he'd be banned years ago, but that's just personal crap and i can't let that cloud my judgement. Besides, creating a witchhunt mentality among the GMs is a really counter-productive thing to do. So, anyways, let's construct what a griefer is by creating an "anti-rollio" so to speak:
  1. a griefer is random in their target faction preference and haphazard in their sprees (ie. "sorry i was drunk" "my kid brother got on the comp" excuses)
  2. eagerness to engage anyone in the most mindless flame war and not above lying through one's teeth (ie. your normal squad vs squad bitch fest)
  3. Acting like being a total asshole you can't be IRL is *IC* (ie. pottymouthed taunts on ingame channels)
  4. Using lawyer speak to invent reasons why your victims deserved it
  5. "that wasn't a n00b but a 2nd account"
there. that about illustrates what is a griefer/pirate scum (depends on your perspective. *OOC* or *IC* respectively)...now all we need to do is remember my pirate FAQ and the "honorable" pirates aren't really griefers, per se. (though i'm sure they step over the line in places and times; actually, i'm sure alot of squaddies could fit the bill to a tee)

P.s. there's a thread dedicated to Rollio's stuff here
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Zero0
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im gonna try and stay as objective as I can:

But as long as there is some or any type of oppression, there will always be a resistance, no matter how honorable the parties may be to their own rules those rules are still written by those that would willingly kill and plunder :shot:

And as long as the oppression exists(I cant remember a time when it hasnt) there will always two types of resistors:
1)Political: those who do most of their fighting with words by getting others to notice whats happening rant

2)Militant: those who do not talk but only respond :sniper:

There are many variations of both (ie. loudmouth killers, gun-totin politicians) but there are to many to go through them one by one.

And there is still the argument that neither of these approches is correct.

(I would like to apologize for my spelling, im not the best at it :dunce: )
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Kami
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All just excuses to shoot at people that are less skilled or prepared then they are. That's considered fun, naturally.
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Zero0
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2002 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, True :D
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russian wrote:
You see the thing that I learned and I am trying to get my squadmates to learn that pirating IS a business. And many business rules apply here as well.
In a nutshell we are selling our services - not killing you. In order to sell them, we have to present clear benefits of it and give you a fair price. We WANT you to come back to unreg, because you are our valuable customer. Simple as that. We don't need to kill you, nor do we really want to (for that we can go to wake or sol space and flip some beacs). We want your money and we want you be satisfied with our service.
On a lucky day I can make about 1.5M in fees, and that is only because the customers pay. If I start asking for big pods, they won't pay and will start getting very pissed (not just annoyed). That will lead to my revenues go down.

Also, I believe pirates should be nice to their customers, sometimes I have to talk them into paying. However, they must know that if you don't pay, I will keep my word and destroy your vessel. So, there is a fine line between being nice and following your word. Also, it is hard not to get personal with your victim. "Oh, I jsut got this nice tenesity, please let me go, I have no cash to reequip". I heard this and many other excuses so many times, but I, as a pirate, have to be an asshole in that case (well, usually I make them stop, check JOSSH for their cash and ask a smaller pod if necessary).

So, yes, I do believe pirates add to JG, but only if they are played right, stricly with RP AND if their purpose is not running around ripping right and left, but earning money and RPing a pirate.
BlkPrince wrote:
I'm a pirate, and i will kill you for whining. j/k

Listen bud, theres Privateers (The Gang,PoD, TDP) and pirates (usually a wanker). If you died, he's obviously not a pirate. He just wanted an excuse to kill you. Were you in reg space or Dereg? who was this pirate?

in The Gang we have this philosophy if someone pays, and you kill them, they won't pay again. This guy was either 1) stupid 2) bored or 3) didn't really care what you did and he was going to kill you anyway. Thats not a true Privateer or pirate. Most pirate squads are businesses. We depend on the flow of income to keep our squads running. By killing off your customer base...you drive yourself into the ground.

now if you're seriously thinking that theres not enough penalties against civ ripping, that pirates are too wide spread, and that you want to quit the game, maybe you should sit back for a minute and think. Is jumpgate the game for you? Are you willing to interact enough with other players in order to insure your survival? Lots of solo pilots survive in this game with few problems in between. They accept the fact that YOU WILL DIE . Secondly, if the civ ripper is above you, he does lose experience, not to mention cash if/when he dies. If you think this isn't harsh enough, go get a perm and hten try working it off. Yeah some ppl become skilled at this, just like some become skilled at fluxing or hauling or any other aspect of the game.

Now understand that paying will not garuntee you survival sometimes. I've PoD'd a lot of ppl only to be paid on then cussed out. I promptly returned their credits and shot them down. It's a business transaction, for you its your survival, for the pirate, it's money. Be nice to the pirate, and he'll more than likely respect you. And by judging from your stats, you survived the encounter rather well. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
    Now heres some tips for survival:
  1. Stay in reg space
  2. If you're going to be heavy, offer a pilot 1mill to escort you (as long as he's good or in a well known squad it'll be worth it)
  3. Be civil to the pirate and try to talk your way out of it (while doing this, don't be screaming for help on any other channel or he will waste you right before your help arrives)
  4. One word, Convoy
  5. Intel, pay attention to bounty messages, you are in a tow and a target of oppurtunity, expect to be killed since you're a solo pilot. Take every means necessary to insure your surivival. Take the long way through reg space instead of shortcuts through Dereg)
  6. Learn to use a camera to check roid masked ships on roids.
those 6 rules are the ones i use when towing, and i've only been fired on in a two twice, and escaped (barely) both times.
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Alshain
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it comes down to this...

:headbang:
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PoD policy for HoD squad on EU server
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luma_Morod wrote:
As for wannabe pirates, i would like to recomend them to take a copy of Barry Lyndon, by Stanley Kubrik and watch the way Captain Feeny, the Highwayman conducts his business. It's an honour to be robbed with such gallantry.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fetch wrote:
Several months ago I started a new pirate account. I really only had one big goal for the account... I wanted to find out if it were possible to make money solely through piracy. I minimized my danger by roiding and waiting for unescorted tows, I flew without a duelist for the extra FF, and carried Nukes so that I could quickly kill any tow I needed to and escape. I never engaged other fighters, as it was not a PVP account. As I wanted to know how an unknown pirate would fare, I did not restrict my piracy to certain people or squads. As I was pirating everyone, I was playing the role of a true outlaw and lone wolf. After my first few unsuccessful days of trying to pirate cargo tows in Unreg, I moved to equipment tows in reg space. The highest PoD I ever gave was 500k, and that was to someone who was carrying 100 Gators. I kept my rates extremely reasonable. Now, for perspective. I died 2 times in the month I pirated with the account. Due to Insurance losses being what they are, that was around 12 million lost. Add in the Nukes I used and the total gets upwards of 20 million. During my entire tenure as a pirate, I was able to pirate only 8.5 million total. There were several reasons for this large loss, but I do not believe skill was the factor. I was paid by less then 10% of the people I PoDd. As a pirate, one should expect to meet the occasional 'defiant merchant,' but in this games economy, everyone can afford to be that type of player. The guy I PoDd for 500k refused to pay, and instead he chose to crash himself into the gate and lost 460mcr. He explained to me that he would simply never pay a pirate, and would never support my griefing by allowing me a kill stat. Instead, he would simply spend the next day matter farming... I was told similar things by most of the others that refused to pay. In total, I would guess I took somewhere near 2 billion out of the economy, and was only able to make 8.5 million in pirate fees. That fact alone says a great deal about the current state of the economy. A true pirate has to successfully steal 4-6 million between each death to be viable. With my PoDs at an average of 200k and 8.4% of people paying, thats around 238-357 PoDs between deaths. As this was only one experiment and several variables can drastically change these numbers, I do not ask anyone to take these values as set in stone. However, these numbers do represent my experience and helped to explain exactly why it was not possible to remain viable as a lone pirate.


Now, he goes onto rant about how piracy doesn't pay and won't even in EP2 and cites how others don't care and cries alot into a big box of tissues all the while claiming how haulers and escorts have all the fun by making a profit. (he completely misses the point that the economy's FUBAR, going so far as to imply "farming" is viable and fun)
    which begs the question, "is this entire rant just about justifying 2nd account farming and farming itself?"
He's also a complete idiot about the risk/benefit ratio with bombs/burglar equations...he's so stupid he actually had the nerve to ignore his 100 Gator friend from his "real pirates don't eat Quiche" sobstory. Lessie now 100 gators and 400 bombs will turn up in the scan as BOMB, so you'd need 100 gators and <99 bombs (assuming pirate scans after first success. duh!)...that's a 50/50 chance in the worst case scenario of losing insurance if you're dumb enough to let yourself pirate while you have negPR. If you're smart this won't even be a consideration, so you'd only risk tax loss (not to mention most haulers would keep bombs in low supply [<10% true cargo] to keep it unpredictable, if they're smart. duh)
    and don't fool yourself. ALL haulers will carry at least one bomb on board simply because the loss of one commod WITH NO INSURANCE IN THAT THEFT means a whole hell of a lot more than people give credit for, especially the "we want /give still" pirate bunch. Talk about selfishness to the point of griefing
So what's the tax loss on a ranger compared to the booty of a single successful grab off that "100 gator tow"? (calculations assume Ranger is alone and has to equip scanner modx and defensive gun for conflux while roided - sacrificing duelist for FF so laser for sure)
Vedette (12 cargo), Griffon (10 cargo) & Squall (11 cargo).


c55500+c500600*2+c90400+c59000+c46000+c83000*2+c161000+c6000= 1.585 Mcr insured gear (lower this a bit if the pirate actually feels that MS would be more appropriate and cost effective; assumes pirate is wanting to intimidate TOWs with the size of his balls...uh..i mean missiles)
:boing: :jump:
Add in any ECM gear (probably not; roid hugging is cost effective by far) & Modx (including one burglar and perhaps a scanner. last would be one, two or three FF)...so depending on burglar cost this uninsured bit would be insignificant. All told the tax loss would be approximately 10% (assuming ~25 beacons held outweight tax increase for ~88 PR; see manual, p.46) and around 160,000 credits if pirate didn't have negPR.
    Piracy tools will eliminate need for pirate to "PoD" figuratively speaking (no need to do the protection racket gig when the tools make it gratuitous and harmful on your insurance rating)...Besides, if successful at taking a commodity like MC worth in excess of 600,000cr and you're in the black for PR you get the insurance off that too, do that 4 times and you've eliminated your insurance costs even if the 5th unit was a bomb, or you get downed on the way to fence yer booty
What i sense are flailing efforts to keep /give and the "PoD" statpad excuse. it's lazy and hazes the difference between RP and griefing. Unfortunately, morons like Fetch are listened to because they SPAM effectively.
if yer smart, you'll see $$$ in pirating come EP2
Crossreference (piracy & farming)...CrossReference (bombs, burglar & /give)
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RazorX
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't come off sounding like a whiny shit in that thread, did I?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's another point that get's forgotten in the rush to throw out pro-'WINGAME button' propaganda.

Not only will burglar make cutting one's engines economic suicide, but pirates who ARE known can cut protection racket deals while on station. (sort of like, "I know your squad MatFarms, and you know our squad Pirates...sooooo"; /trade)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since www.mindphyre.com seems to be down for some reason, i've uploaded a new pic i got while chatting with Tarkan of EU server pirate infamy (HoD squad)

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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rui wrote:
As all people who have tried being a pirate will know taking the pirate route is by far the hardest route in JG to take, atm tho they are really screwed and I personally feel that an official line by the GM's would be nice as to what they are doing or intend to do about the whole thing

Just to proove how much this is a p*ss take for the pirates, for all you "oh they deserve it" traders. Recently I was in my tow heading to EE for some inidium. On the way there in the gurge i spot a pirate (I wont embarrass him by saying his name) asking people to stop, be scanned and maybe burgled depending on the cargo of course. He requested 2 ships to stop. Only 1 did. Then he came over to me and asked me to stop, with his macro. I stopped waited till he was about 2k range, turned towards him and started shooting him. Then he launches all his missiles, which i believe were hellz and my shield takes one big dive, Ive got raks on my tow, I look at his ship and 2 thorns are firing plus... an insight looking laser lol. So i start pounding away and take him down to low shields so he turns and FFs, and I FF after him, so he does a turn and FFs the other way, so I FF after him, my standard sol tow flies faster than the tensy so I start shooting him with the raks and soon enough he turns back, but I get the shots and he goes boom. Im not even on armour. I like the way that he was flying with only 2 FF's probably 2 for burglar and displacer thingy 1 for duelly and 2 for FF. I had 4 FF.

Is it right... when a trader can EASILY blow up or deterr a pirate away from him just like that I mean I got the kill, cos this guy was one poor evader, but still comeon any trader right now can shoo away a pirate with a loaded tow, just have to make sure u dont hit the gate or something equally silly. As for everyone saying oh be sneaky get in rangers and scan people and wait for good cargo, when some pirate ranger comes close to u and u turn on it with a couple of raks, it dont take many shots at a nice 300distance to finish off the ranger damn fast. Then lets say the tow pilot only has bankers or some mining lasers or something and cant do a thing, all he has to do is keep himself further away than like 300d so the pirate cant rob him and we all kno how crappy the rangers turn. Lets say EVEN then he cant do that and manages to get himself burgled, then the pirate probably picks up a trap and goes boom. Absolutely pathetic really.

As a nice request to keep the game playable for the average pirate I would like MG to remove the "no PoD in reg rule" until such time as the piracy tools are actually worth using, cos to be fair they've been given a raw deal with the pirate tag aswell as the pirate tools, let alone also now with the RoC. Unless it is MG's intention atm to wipe out pirates in their current form from the game, then it would be wise to take this into consideration.


ah yes, the "i want to log on and play the singleplayer route to pirating and have it be a viable career choice" line...*rollseyes*
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's a rare attempt at objective study of the new Pirate faction


quite interesting...i'm thinking of redoing this FAQ in light of the information coming out. (really hard to build a decent FAQ when all you have are mealymouthed little shits like Rui ranting)
    anyways, on with the quoting...
Quote:
Originally posted by GMHollis
There's no PR drop at all of stealing cargo while flagged PIRATE. To quote from JOSSH entry:

"If you do this, your political ratings don't get hurt by using the Burglar!"

Again: As pirate, your PR with Solrain, Octavius and Quantar drops by 1 point per hour until it reaches 0, and then that's it. You can raise it by missions, you can further lower it for example by CIV ripping, but burglaring will not have any effect on your pol ratings.

Again, pirates are insured as long as they do not have negative political ratings and one other exception: The current way is that a pirate dying by a trap will not get insurance payout. This is not a bug, but an intended feature, however, one that will be changed (see my link in the previous posting).

Do note there is a large difference between EU and US servers. (quite a fairly beefed up RoC over on EU)
    the rule that's been in effect for a bit is that there's no PoDs allowed in reg.space...they added that one when the pirate faction got coded
the US server has lots of traps, and the EU server has a half-decent collection...no info on Burglar modx at this time (market listers and webtracker1.6 fail to note it)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rui (at long last; getting quotes out of him is like going to the dentist) wrote:
A shred of evidence, easy Im in TDP ive been in this squad for months, we are pirates thats what we do. Ive been doing this line of buisiness for a long time, also Ive tried the burglar, in fact im currently trying to figure out new ways of making it viable, different ships etc to use ingame that are possible. Ranger is definately still the best ship for going solo, premia SC aint too bad either for the sols, if u can get to a trader while he is docking the 2 insights pull out commods at the same rate as a ranger does, also the size 2 shield shud offer u enough protection to dock, its fast and manueverable enough. As of yet I havent tried it in FT's im still not too sure on those tho because they cant reallt outmanuever or escape as such, same goes with the Light Fighters, Medium fighters are too slow. Scout is fine, Quant one especially imo, problem is that only 1 size cargo bay so ull have to keep it up for a long time.

I Also in the past month or so been doing alot of trading, in a different account of course, so I know full well the position of the trader in regards to pirates and pirate activity. On top of this Ive also been active in the factionalist role and hunting of the pirates. The few pirates that are still left have resorted to PoDing in unreg for 1mil at a time because the burglar is still quite unfeasable and has obvious flaws.

Running around with Pirate tags on altho having one or two benefits to robbing people, have huge disadvantages in that you are automatically a target for everyone, a tow can shoot pre-emptively, as has been said before the only way is sneak up behind a tow. This can only really be done by either roiding along the sector traffic route, or roiding behind the gate, or waiting in the gate of a large sector where if using an ECM you can see the trader before he sees u, jump to the other side and basically get him as soon as he gets out of the gate. Only problem with this is if he stays in the gate your stuck.

As for the stuff that ive said before I have been actively contributing to this thread, albeit in a slightly sarcastic way, due to the ignorance of some posts, in my earlier ones I have agreed with and also suggested that the burglar range should definately be increased the no burgle while in a gate needs definate fixing, the no insurance with pirate tags is a problem. Its too risky to run around in a ranger with 2 less ModX or any other ship for that matter with no insurance and no guns, also it would be best if traps showed up on a scan with the pirate tags on. The other thing is that the one hit one kill weapon of a trap makes a large majority of targets unviable due to the lack of scanner displaying them. One of these items should be changed, either the scanner shows the traps, or they are near kill items.

Another thing with traps is after alot of these problems are fixed, many traders will start depending alot on traps to protect their cargo. Its not uncommon to see a quarter of the hold of a tow filled with traps. Now as an idea to add to the RP of the whole thing, I think it would be a good idea if traps didnt just spawn but were commods that needed to be made. Pick a station, something like hyperial would be clever, where traps are produced there, also make the traps dependant on a commod which is slightly rare, something like iron, maybe not as rare, but something that needs to be mined, but can be easily mined and obtained in reasonable quantity, upping the yields of iron is probably needed as well, these days its rare to find more than 200 units on the whole server, excluding PoSes etc.

This way the traders can have their weapon but it would promote the increase of mining and of producing the items, also be another thing for the PoS markets, another commod to be introduced into the game, with potential good profit for the makers and for the people who put the time into obtaining the iron commod. Also leads onto potential interesting RP from an organised pirate force, confiscating iron, or blockading where traps are produced. Somewhere remote and that has no unreg portions of space, so to give the traders a chance and also to not give any faction a clear advantage. I think Hyperial wud be a good one

Right pretty much everything Ive said on this subject in this thread and in others can be found in this one post. Dont say I dont contribute when I clearly do Muffy, you on the other hand are Yet to make a real contribution.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

while not exactly what i'd call reliable, the following is an entertaining introduction to EU & EP2 piracy...
TotalN00b wrote:
Piracy: Report

Okay, so I'm done with piracy now. Had some fun, made some credits, got shot, chased, PoDed and shot some more.

How?
I equip a Scaner, InSight, Burglar and Displacer. This seems to be a pretty high number of MODx, leaving me only one gun and no room for Flashfires. Due to the lack of Flashfires and thus the inability to get away if I screw up and get caught, I equipped a Specter ECM and Night Watchman radar.
The ECM/Radar setup allowed me to evade an Intensity and get to Lothars Landing for fuel without being spotted.
Stealth seems to be very useful as a pirate.

So I find a target and check the area. If the target seems defenceless (no visible escorts, heavy, unable to get to a gate quickly) I move in. I don't generally give warnings, since that requires moving my hands away from the joystick. I think pirate tag + moving towards ship at high speed + cargo scan is enough of a warning.
Anyway, so I do the cargo scan thing. I have to get within 200d and not overshoot the stupid slow Freighter, which takes a small amount of skill. If there's anything I like the look of, I grab it. To do this I need to close the range to within 70d.
This is harder than it sounds, especially if the target is still moving (likely) and I have to track the distance to the gate so I don't petal. This is the part that requires the most piloting skill in cargo-stealing. In a Ranger, turns are slow, so evasion in a sufficiently light ship should be possible.
During stealing I am very vulnerable. I have to stay within range and can't really see anything beyond the arse-end of a freighter unless I get a nice angle and can see ahead of me. I have to watch the distance meter so I don't slip out of range, so any late reinforcements for nice Mr Trader would probably go un-noticed.
Dadds managed to scare me off in his Freighter qute quickly. Since I lack even the firepower to dent a tow, a Guardian shield and freighter armour make him pretty much invincible. He decided to turn around and shoot at me. Tiny Ranger shielding and two Featherfires on me meant I had to run away with just 1 unit of Xenon.
So if the trader fights back, I'm kinda screwed in my Ranger. Maybe if I used a Fighter instead, I might even have the firepower with a pair of Hitman cannons to take down the Guardian, be a real threat.

Unreg is quite pirate-friendly. I didn't see any major pirate hunts, and the pirates that did operate (though they used the old PoD system) did so in large enough groups to scare away lone/small groups of hunters.
In regulated space, the factional defence forces are dangerous. lord_zaz could've caught and killed me if Rui hadn't distracted him.

I didn't get any Traps, which was nice. I'm starting to think that instant-kills aren't the most fair thing for them to do, but on the other hand I have no better solution.

I like this new pirate thing. Seems stealth and evasion skills take precedence over brute force when stealing cargo. As opposed to PoDing, which looks based on who has the bigger gankfleet.
Should be fun. If pirates behave and give up the "I'm a pirate, so I must kill you and get a bounty for it" bit. Killing should be replaced with getting-the-hell-away with whatver you can grab.
I think Giomani had the right idea...
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://umec.oesm.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1847
That's a better view on modern & ancient piracy...I'd post stuff about the pirates of the carribean, but i've already done so a long time ago and i feel any posts on that will make people barf...just look into your local newspapers/mainstream media for journalists cashing in on the Disney movie craze.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howard wrote:
I have been trading recently and have been robbed several times. However in every instance I warn the pirate that I am carrying traps or if I am not carrying traps. This generally meets with approval by the pirate so he knows the risk he is taking. If his wing man decided to destroy me after said pirate had tried to rob me. That I would consider to be bad form and thus would have a contract placed on the pirate who killed me, not the one who tried to rob me.
So it goes something like this.

1. Pirate A scans trader X
2. Trader X declares they are carrying traps
3. Pirate A robs trader X and gets a trap
4. Pirate A dies
5. End of story...........
6. Pirate A's wingman decides to take revenge for death of mate
7. Trader X detroyed.
8. Trader X takes out a single kill contract on Pirate A's wingman
9. Contract completed
10. End of Story!

If process happens again start from point one. I dont care if this is classed as griefing to me it just seems right.



oh on a related note (about scanning) new
Cap-Leith (edited for clarity) wrote:
A Trader will act defensive and will give always a warning, but you get no alert if a pirate registry tagged pilot scans your ship, then the theft and the first unit is a trap!

sounds pretty cool. if you can roid hug within 200m of a trade lane (say just outside a JG) and have some civtagged fluxxor keeping the spawns off you (probably some fluxhunt squad with plausible deniability) you could just pull off scans of unsuspecting tows.

now that's interesting news (probably something you really WEREN'T supposed to let us trader types know, yes? hehehe)
    personally, if i was you, i'd watch my 6
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmmmmmm...hmmmmmm...hmmmmmmm

just realized i'd made an assumption about cargo scanner enhanced ability and didn't think it gave a FULL manifest (except traps)
    silly me assuming ND would code in visibility for something that should be bloody obvious if given full manifest except the one thing that's invisible. doh
Does this change my position regarding the earlier post? yeah, actually it does. Now, i'm changing my bloody position to full on hatred for anyone griefing trap haulers for any reason (with or bloody without a damned warning)


so, to reiterate the four things i've learnt today:
  • pirates don't trigger the "scanning" alert traders get
  • pirates get FULL manifest (just like /cargo) except of course for the traps (which are invisible)
  • MightyGame's on the EU server actually condones "unofficially" KOS for trap usage (which is probably why alot of "pirates" are using the tools)...completely crazed. see here for total rant
  • traps might have a disproportionate chance at being burgled than straight cargo percentage (this is a rumour; yet to be confirmed)
  • "pirates" hold the ludicrous position that the current lethal traps are an offensive weapon. pfffft


Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gods, it's amazing what happens when muffy calls all pirates stupid, thick and a bunch of griefers...so effective i'm going to start insulting 24/7. i might even be able to publish a book at this rate, nevermind a FAQ.

SilentAce wrote:
Stealing..Facts not Fiction.
Ok I am tried of people saying I have said this or I have said that. Time for all you people that think you know what my role entails to get a lesson in pirating with tools as it stands at this present time. Remember this is the game I have to play NOW not one we would like it to be.

I am always learning my role and adjusting it everytime I learn a lesson. I grow tired of people assuming things about me that because I am a pirate I am a PvPer that just likes excuses to kill people and from the posts I have read that being a pirate makes me thick. Neither is true.

Until I joined Black Corsairs I was doing this pirating thing alone and using the tools they gave. Tools that they obviously programmed and never actually tested......or never got a serious pirate to test. I learned from each death a new lesson as I had done when I used to POd...each time I hope making me better at my role.

When I first tried it I flew without a scanner cos my ranger had to have that extra FF to at least give me a chance to get away from anyone HG or not that fancied taking a pop at me. (I do mean anyone I have been chased more than once by civs just cos they think they have a chance or in most cases cos their a lame second account that can't switch between their roles). Anyway without the scanner i had limited success but no real idea of targets goods or risk so after a couple of deaths I re-thought the process and decided I would rely on my long time honed skill of staying alive and just risk the 1 FF and go with the scanner and burglar.

Now it may surprise some of you to know that I do know more than basic maths and that even with several different lines of cargo shown on a scan I can add then in my head in seconds and reach a number of empty cargo slots very easily. I have made several adjustments to make this process faster for me. I have switched the scan off the keyboard and onto my right HAT so making it possible for me to fly well and scan. So all in all within 1 quick scan I can know if my target is full or if not how many slots he may have for traps. I can then take the risk. NOTE THIS. With all my robberies I have come to the conclusion that the stealing is bugged and it doesn't work to the true %'s and I can tell you if my radar showed traps on a target I would seriously think more than twice about stealing from the ship. This is not "what someone thinks I would do" this is me telling you exactly what I do.

Ok so we now know I can fly around in my ranger and only rob targets that I am certain carry no traps....great for me and all is hunky......wrong. I still die when I happen to jump in near a pirate hunting squad cos even with my ranger speed that 1 FF is a killer. So once more I sit and think as I do on all of my deaths....looking for the lesson and a way to counter it.

After some thought I remember that a Oct TOW is very special compared to others. It has 7 modx spots. Simple math tells me on this I can fit a burglar and scanner and 5 FF's. While not totally saving me 5 FF's plus a damn good AB tank gives me at least a 50/50 if not better chance of outrunning the hunters. With this in mind I am back in the game.

Notice I have switched to the TOw not to rob "1" trader silly but to increase my survival chances when I am not stealing. In my robberies as a TOw the most I have stolen in 1 run on a victim is 10 units.....exactly the same as I did in my ranger.

This is a role I live so I know that to totally throttle a trader makes no sense at all. I for one would never steal more than I think his profit margin is. How do i know what his profit margin may be i hear you ask....well he is a simple guide that I sometimes use as a pirating tool. It may also show some of you that I take this role seriously and plan what I do.

Many traders use the tracker and their BPC (Best Profit Calculator) I also use this but I have another name for it. (Best Pirating Calculator). In the good old days of podding I could sit in one of these profit area's and get more than one pod from the string of traders all trying to be the first to get to the pot of gold. Now its just knowing that someone will at some point come along and pickup those 500 units of whatever it is that is offering a nice profit. I know if the station offers a mission and I know the unit cost. So you can bet i have a rough idea of how many units i am looking to take so I can earn and that the trader can still make a reasonable profit from.

I hope the above shows I think about my role and that the arguements a lot of you that don't actually know the role have posted about I have already tested. I state again in bold so that maybe someone somewhere will take up this baton and bully ND into listening. GET THEM TO CODE THE TRAP TO DESTROY THE BURGLAR. That way both players still live and the robbery is stopped in its tracks. It really is that simple. I would then see traps as a defensive weapon and I for one would never kill a trader for destroying my burglar.
    do note silentace is recounting a solo-pirate career and banking on the fact he's allowed to kill traders for using traps, not to mention the common misconception that piracy is supposed to be a career choice (ie. economically viable in the long term)...all this probably stems from the fallacy/myth that pirates are borne of freedom and not merely parasites of war
ahhhh...looks like Rui recently backtracked on his, "pirates prefer solo career and why can't it be viable" context (probably forgot that last bit) and spouted this bit oh wisdom:
Rui (mr. Woods from the Trees) wrote:
Its quite simple really. If there are people to work with, then we work together and very well as a team. Im always trying to think of new tactics for team-based playing. However what me and SilentAce were talking about is that at the moment there are not many pirates around, so no matter how good we are at teamwork, if there is no one for us to work together with, then thats just that. I know that pirates are orgasnised. ive learnt loads and i will say that a group of them are very organised and an excellent fighting force. Just as Raiderr has said that we work well as a team, so in the situations that have been described here the outcome is positive.

Unfortunately it is quite rare to find a wingman atm, hopefully that mite change at some point. However when there are other pilots around we DO fly together.

Now the large trading and factionalist squads even with numbers around still sometimes will fly lone and will NOT protect their squads tows.

This is what I think Raiderr was referring too.

When we have the numbers we WILL work as a team and we do it well. When some of the other squads have the numbers, whether they choose to escort or work as a team is still very much up to them and does not always happen. That is no fault of the pirates at all. If the traders were to work as cohesively when they had the numbers which they frequesntly do WAY more than the pirates. There wud be no complaints ever from the traders because they would always win.

funny how he comes up with this and totally forgets he came up with an entirely opposite argument earlier...the irony is he's laffing at us using his earlier quote. *shrug* i'm going to eventually edit and par down all this bullshit into something resembling a FAQ and not a collection of pirates playing semantic tiddlywinks to win an argument.
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