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IC versus OOC (Storyline spontaneity vs objectivity)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:34 am    Post subject: IC versus OOC (Storyline spontaneity vs objectivity) Reply with quote

Before i start quoting all the rants about *InCharacter* versus *outofcharacter*, i'd like to point you to a nice site dedicated to RolePlay in JumpGate:

BaadF00d new wrote:
The transition between IC and OOC seems to flip cause and effect. OOC its "I have this level, therefore I can cast X spells". IC its "I can cast X spells in a day, therefore in comparison to my peers I have Y level".

now then
JaGar wrote:
Another thing that irks me is when I see (on the role play board) posts like this

Omega, How about something like this?

Karash becomes fleet admiral. He would be in charge of organizing the fleet to defend against an invasion. He is also responsible for arranging the training of any and all Octavian pilots in combat vs Sols and Quants.

Omega becomes head of Internal Security and is 2nd in command of the fleet (in case Karash isn't on-line when an invasion occurs). Omega is responsible for tracking down, and eliminating, pilots with Oct bounties. Also point of contact for Status of Force agreements.

Someone else (don't know who .. maybe Nohbody) is in charge of ensuring stations stay stocked and organizing FMs.

Each of these "wings" can establish a well rounded chain of command in case the leader isn't on-line. For SOF agreements, if it makes it past the "cabinet" level positions, requires a majority vote of member squads.

To declare war on another squad or faction, once it makes it past the "cabinet", would require 2/3 of member squads to approve it before the declaration is official.

This is a VERY rough draft of what I have in mind. As you can see, there is no overall leader. That's the Emperor's job, and no one here is trying to take it from him.

Other particulars would be hammered out over the negotiating table.
Not only is the above OOC because it is on ND RP Forum and the writer is speaking as himself (OOC) and not his character (IC) but if this plan were accepted by Karash, it would be useless and not fun because everyone who read the post would know the outcome.

This is like kids playing cops and robbers, 1 kid says you be the cop i'll be the robber and we can use dads shed as the prison and you can lock me up and I'll escape and shoot you.

Ok thats a bit over the top, but you kinda get the idea wink
The way RP is supposed to work in JG is like this........

This is what I am and what I do and you have to deal with it.

Very few players actually RP, most are out there doing mission, running cargo etc and don't give RP a second thought. Some try RPing but get stuck when the game changes and have to drastically butcher or change their story to fit their new path.

Roleplaying is an art, one which you cannot just fall into and takes a lot of planning and cooperation to get the desired result. This recent and well thought out RP by OEC is a good example of what JG is truly about and I can assure you, it took atleast 2 months to plan and coordinate.

I made a plea (OOC) that OEC stand down from their RP until the current FM is completed and Octavius has the s5 pp in its hands, but after a good nights sleep, I thought why should they ? They are playing the game the way they want and we have to deal with it! They are not breaking any rules and are playing along within the description given to the Octavian people. I also said the timing was wrong, but I am wrong!

What better time to force a coup and sieze the throne than when newly discoverd technology has been put into prodution that would improve the firering power and handling of Octavian craft ? If OEC succeeds before manufacturing is complete, then when the s5 pp finally rolls of the factory floor it would make their position all the more strong. The task of the Confederation is stop OEC before production is complete or face annihilation.

Game signature excluded because this post is IC (work it out :smile:
[ I had to remove my sig from my profile to do that]
JoeStraz wrote:
Why was my post OOC? Where was I talking about myself OOC? I laid out an outline of what a new alliance would be like. It was an attempt by my character to get both sides to the negotiating table. What's wrong with that??

Also, my calls for a cease fire during the FM are also IC. Again, what's wrong with that? OOC: I could care less if OEC stands down or not. I, and my squad, will be running the FM civvy anyway, so I know they aren't in any danger. IC: I see this as a perfect "excuse" to put down arms and try to hammer out an agreement. Who wouldn't try to cease an opportunity like that??
JaGar wrote:
Not you talking about yourself Joe. You talking about the game as yourself and not your character. See how confusing it can be ?

If as you claim it is your character talking then you are indeed IC however I can't see your character selling out the confederation by offerring Karash an Admiraly within the fleet therefore I took it as OOC.

BTW Joe & Nosmo, I wasn't getting at you personally, there are several posts from which I could have chosen but yours was the least confusing.
EXACTLY! chatting about near traitorous activities under a moniker of *IC* gets you a big fat black mark on your reputation.

It's rather simple. keep anything involving OOC comments about "Storyline Posts/Roleplaying Events" that might compromise your character's integrity to private messaging. (ie. most everything involved in manufacturing a nonspontaneous plotline; Otherwise, prepared to be labelled "n00b")

Oh, BTW, this does not mean that anything you say is perceived as *IC* (though i'm sure members of Gargamel/Nazgul will take exception to that comment)
JoeStraz wrote:
It wasnt traitorous. I'm no longer in the Confed. I left so I could be 100% impartial. Karash being fleet admiral made sense since he has the most combat knowledge. A confed member would be 2nd in command of the fleet, but in charge of internal security. Heck, we could even work up something where they swap positions once a month.

What I posted was an outline of what could be .. nothing more. Omega asked what I had in mind, and I threw out a rough draft of something. That's it.

I'm (my character) is still going under the assumption that Karash still has the empire at heart. He just spoke with his Octavian temper. Heck, when I heard about the Phoon size 4 PP, I almost joined him!!! wink

Personally, I don't see anything I did as selling out anyone. There is comprimise in negotiations .. give and take. All of those need to be hammered out, and I didn't even scratch the surface in that message.

BTW -- I didn't take anything personal. I don't mind constructive criticism :smile:
yes, but reading your comments in CONTEXT that you'd left just to say something "objective" just sounds like partisan politics to me. (i doubt Karash wants ANYTHING to do with OctConfed, so your "compromise" isn't. What you're actually doing is weakening the *IC* positions of BOTH SIDES; Ergo sum traitorous to OCTAVIA)

BTW, saying you're an "objective and impartial" negotiator is moot...There has to be negotiations planned by both parties before you slap up compromise deals. You're selling out BOTH sides, and looking mighty traitorous to OCTAVIAN interests as a whole.
JOSSH biblio on Octavia
Octavius is known for its commonly mercenary attitudes, where blood is often thinner than water.
Anyone remember the old GDW Traveller RPG? (i'm thinking of the Vargr, specifically the mercenary culture)

Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:49 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here's Innominate's take on RPing
What is RP? Is RP discussing and planning events, talking to your enemies and deciding on an RP war? Is RP speaking in elizabethian english on UO? Is RP publishing regular reports about your activities, and giving a story to other people? Nope.
Roleplaying is very simple, playing a role that is separate from who you are in the real world. It doesn't mean that your little character has the right to be whatever you want it to be, your character has the right to be whatever he can make of himself in the world he's living in. It doesn't mean that you have any kind of control. Too many supposed RP'ers seem to rely on having control of the universe around them to say what they want it to do, instead of simply living in that universe. Thats NOT roleplaying, thats writing a story, and acting it out.

In short, roleplaying isnt about the language you use, its not about who you talk to about it, its about existing in the game world as your character. Not having the game world exist to make your character be whatever you want it to be.

Too many people want their characters to be some kind of great and wonderful hero, or a vicious pirate hated by all. You simply can't say that your character is a great hero and expect it to have any bearing on anything. Your character has to EARN that title.

Ok, time to shut the hell up=)
Majorfreak, the point to that post is, that you cant expect the universe and other people to behave the way you see fit. You're playing a character who's only effect on the world is what that character can do. I am basicly bitching about people who complain when someone breaks thier role in the universe. (Ie a guy whos proclaimed himself a great pirate hunter, complaining that the pirates keep killing him for no reason)
Rollio wasnt a bad guy because he posted on the board or his squad page that he was a nasty pirate. He was a bad guy because he REALLY DID kill people.

I'm bitching about self-proclaimed RPers who are really just being storywriters and actors. PvP and RPing go hand in hand, especially in this game. Not saying you need to do both, but it is a natural combonation.

Your character isnt who you say it is, its who you make it into.

As far as im concerned, non-pvpers should realize that in this game they may be forced to deal with it, although through a few simple steps they can avoid virtually all PvP.
Non-pvpers should never:
1. Fly honor guard
2. Get a bounty
3. Enter unregulated space(If you're not willing to take the risk, pay someone else to)
4. The most forgotten one, Don't talk shit to people, piss someone off enough and they might just kill you for it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooooooo...and i found this archived thread: Meta: Fanfic and Roleplaying (It revolves around the controversy over our first betatest event run by Gbob (and hijacked by RoyofCA)
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ND RP forum thread
Looks like September went to town with his insights...
OOC about RP
First, I'm sorry I have to make this post.

I come from a long history of RPs, mainly paper, some plastic, and I have often been the GM. From this experience, let me say that there is nothing more annoying than the player who thinks he's the GM. You get this alot with first time gamers, and I think we've had a case here recently.

Here's some RULES for everyone to make sure things go smoothly:

Rule #1 in any RPG, paper or Online: The GM is GOD. (in jumpgate's particular case GOD is the Devs and Themis because they literally control the universe) The GM's job is to control the environment and the NPCs.

Rule #2: You can only influence the universe in the ways that your character can influence the universe. You have 0 control over the NPCs, etc.

If either of these rules is violated, the result is bullshit. Allow me to take some examples-

Tesrend's Embargo-
First, everything I saw was limited to actual players affecting the universe in ways that their characters could actually affect the universe. I don't recall Tesrend claiming that the Quantar Speaker appointed him to enact this embargo (which, unless a GM had used an appropriate account, would have been bullshit). The squads making up the Free Trade Coalition grouped up and called themselves the FTC. They did not make claims that an NPC had brought them together, financed them, etc. If they had, it would have been bullshit. Furthermore, GOD gave validity to this RP, as can be seen on JOSSH. The end result - Good player made storyline.

Milkman's diplomatic mission-
While I find the whole GrimFalcon part a little iffy, apparently Milkman sat in Hyperial station until a GM got online as a dockworker or whatever and talked to him. If those Quotes actually came from a GM running an NPC, and not some other pilot pretending to be an NPC, then it's good RP. If they did come from another pilot pretending to be an NPC or worse yet, if Milkman made those quotes up himself, then it goes in the bullshit pile.

OEC and Aristo -
Hmm tough call. Knowing OEC they probably actually flew down to Hyperial and sold the engines. They probably spewed a bunch of stuff on f3 too. I doubt however, that a GM used an NPC at said 'event' or at any time communicated as an NPC on behalf of Aristo Conglomerate. So while it pains me, I'd have to put this one in the bullshit pile, but it's extremely high quality bullshit, and had they bothered to ask or work with Moll on it, it might not have been bullshit.

Can you stretch the rules?
Sometimes. I think a good example would be the ONP/Orion Faction disk thing. That TRI guy they were supposedly in contact with was probably being 'played' by one of them, and not an actual GM. The important part here is that their storyline affected only them, and so it didn't matter if the TRI guy was being 'played' by them. So even if it was bullshit to the rest of us, it doesn't matter becuase it didn't affect us. Furthermore, the GMs picked this one up and ran with it, so it officially happened, and isn't bullshit at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MuffyTheTrollSlayer was in fine form dealing with yet another Whine And Cheese festival from SpaceDrake.
jeezuz. might as well go on a school trip. lol. pffft.

look, it's easy to explain:
SAS soldier wrote:
proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance
This includes GM's TESTING special tools before hand on a test pilot server that was already available...Not having the darned tools work as "promised" is hilarious, as well as pathetic. It's not anyone's fault that the tools didn't work...holy crap! I'm sure the GM's felt really sorry that they assumed the teleport stuff would work.
    i'm not going to bother quoting the RP FAQ, cause you've already stated how at fault the GM's were, and your pathetic whining about how the shit hit the fan in no way puts any smear on your already tarnished reputation

    Yeah, right! pffft. please explain to my how my pride in your squad's efforts against adversity and GM tool failures turned to disgust at your shameless display of finger pointing.

  • The fact the special tools you were promised (that the RP FAQ clearly states you shouldn't have been promised) didn't work as planned should have in no way detracted from your valiant efforts...
  • The fact that CaptCrunch failed to communicate to his escorts querying him repeatedly...
  • The fact that you "mistakenly" launched with HG tags on (uh yeah, right, and i suppose you forgot you can't change them at Hyp?)...
  • Plus the fact Dolus Malus managed to gank you and your delegate.

Fortunately, most of us are overjoyed that /home was used at Hyperial, and that the HSS means that Hyperial has the beginnings of an active faction later than sooner...meaning your whine and cheese festival will be forgotten rather quickly (too bad. You could have gained honor instead of a big "Wynar" tag)

Last edited by MajorFreak on Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ND plot forum thread
Agramor wrote:
Very interesting question, really. In the days of text-only games, a.k.a. MUSH et al, roleplay was the major force behind daily gaming. A convention was used then, much like it's been outlined here, that you posted or "posed" an action that had potential, then those around had a chance to pose a potentially opposing or supporting action. Reasonable RP would be resolved by all present.

Bad RP actions had effect as opposed to potential. These posts or poses were called "powerplays". In most cases, a powerplay was ignored, or called upon by all present in an OOC manner. The game itself didn't have a way to resolve RP issues unless the GM's were extremely active- the consequences of powerplaying were most usually being shunned by all around you. AKA /ignore.

Example of a powerplay: "I can't take this anymore!" I reach out and grab your throat and squeeze until you suffocate.

Same example as a potential: My eyes open wide, and my face contorts into a mask of anger. With animalistic fury I launch myself at you, hands outstretched and fingers reaching for your throat- "I can't take this ANYMORE!"

The examples here in JG given above are good. Here we have the ability to mix RP with actual game mechanics, provided you're careful about plot, introduce only believable factors (i.e: no indestructible robot troops), and are careful not to interfere via non-consentual RP (i.e.: Pilot Agramor was sleeping in his quarters, and I assasinated him)
Calash wrote:
The troops are for effect more than actual combat. By saying that you will be delivering 1000 troops, and following it up by crerating a convoy to escort a hg tow to the station you open up the possability for counter-roleplaying and conflict. Moll would have the final word on if these troops had any effect since they are NPC and by basic RP law we can not directly control there actions.

In reality there should be no in-station fighting that does not involve a GM to regulate the RP of it. Very few of us can be trusted not to exceed the limits of possability when given the ability to create any situation (An example is your IC, though very funny :) ).

but, to turn your example into reality, make it something like this.

Then, get 2-3 tows togenter and lots of escorts, all HG, and inbetween the times listed try and land your troops. Carry 500 of something semi-heavy to simulate the troop containers. If you land it will be the GM decision as to what type of damage the troops would cause before being repeled.
GM_Moll (edited for clarity) wrote:
OK, all teasing aside, I really wanted to comment that Agramor and Calash have really nailed it in terms of how I tend to work with things.
  1. I really think in-station fighting is really too hard to pull off. For believability purposes do all your fighting right outside, and make the point to get *in* the station.
  2. Will you ever be able to destroy a station from the inside? No.
  3. Will you be able to damage it extensively? Oh sure. Ask Hyperial about all the damage pilots were asked to clean up. ;)
  4. Will you ever be able to destroy a station from the outside? I don't know.
  5. Can you destroy a station now? Yes and no. Technically, anything's possible. Feasible is another issue.

  6. I'd love to see a lot more attempts of diplomacy and interaction rather than:
    "I bring 100 troops"
    "Oh yeah? Well I BRING 500 troops!"
    "Did I say 100? I meant 1000 troops!" etc.
    .. gonna get crowded in these stations at that rate, and keep in mind, this isn't a planet. This is space. You really have some limitation of how many troops you can fit on a station, and TRI would have available. (Example in action: How many enforcers do you ever see at a time? 3-4? Each of those ships have 1 person, and TRI considers that sufficient.) Unless you're able to shuttle pilots up from the nearest planet, it is generally a bad idea to start deploying more troops than you can reasonably account for.
    You can say you're deploying all you like. You can say whatever you like. TRI and TRINN can acknowledge you've said it. But when it comes down to it, if you can't back up your numbers somehow (1 person per 50 troopers, for example), what are you doing? Deploying a pack of bunny rabbits, for all practical purposes.
    Otherwise TRI needs to really start accounting for all these extra people, enroll them in TRI and give their hard workers a raise... ;) (j/k)
All my opinion of course. Everyone's welcome to RP however they wish here. Credible RP is important, and something I talked about in the Fiction FAQ (should I break those up into separate posts?)

Try not do anything which is not fictionally plausible
The key here is don't over-exaggerate your place in the galaxy. You're all pilots, okay? You're all important to TRI's efforts.

aid, it's still a wide range of possibility....
Uhm...i do believe they've forgotten a really important point: these marines that were transported via jumpgates HAD to have been given the genetic've got to think about the fanaticism of these folk to be willing to give up their reproductive ability...(can't take that lightly)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2002 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ND general forum thread
RazorsKiss wrote:
In my experience, consistency goes a LONG way toward having an easily recognizable character. If you want to RP a bad guy - always be a bad guy. If you don't, the whole suspension of disbelief goes away, and you're left with the impression - "so if he's really a bad guy... why was he helping so and so, or doing such and such". I know it's just a game, but the more consistent your character is, the better you will be recognized - for your character. Then you can separate the personal you and your in-game persona - as long as the public you is always more or less the same.

I've been New Dawn since day one on the server. Got in right as stress test was about to start. I've never been anything BUT a flux hunter - I've had about a year to work on that persona, that "party line" that I adopt. If I am working on a faction mission - it's because it helps me get a better ship to hunt flux with, or better weapons, (ie: nukes), or to promote unity vs the Conflux. Etc etc amen. Sure, I slip ooc every so often. It's fun goofin around late and night and talking about goofy stuff.

But when it's time to role play, or I'm out just flying, I try to be what our roleplay says we should be. Doesn't always work, but I do my best.


I'm hunting flux - it's our "mission" - our "charter"
Cargo? - I need money to fund our activites toward that goal.
Artyhunting? - I'm upgrading my ship to make it a more effective weapon...
Non factional
Non - PvP (our stance is that it's counter productive to the work of "Reconstruction" - so we only fight if fired upon, and sometimes not even then.)
TRI - TRI gives the orders to fight the Flux, we do it. Without a TRI, the war would not go as well - it would divide our forces and weaken us.
Factions: We give up almost all of our loyalty to the faction of birth - we fight flux. Any other war is counter-productive, most "factional issues" are beneath our radar.

Do I believe all that? Who cares? It's the RP we do, and it's fun to have a unique stance, and be a unique squad with a RP different from the rest of the server. It gives us an "identity" - when you think of New Dawn, I bet most of you could say exactly what we stand for.

We try not to be too strident. Though I am rather opinionated, so I guess I'm the loudmouth of the bunch. I also like to write, so I end up here quite a bit giving "our take" on an issue. It's all part of the "Squad roleplay" scene.

Karash, Rostam, DrKronic, {ND}Falcon, Aubrey, Tyke,
(I don't care what anyone says, because I don't care about the issues themselves =) - I saw him the very first day he started, and debated the merits/demerits of ND's non-factional stance, and he has not changed his tune on any issue I've seen on these boards one iota - that deserves a pat on the back, no matter where he stands on whatever issue. He doesn't deviate a bit)
Russian, Hurricane, MadCat, BlkAngel, Tesrend - those guys are who make the server go round. Roleplay for the fun of "making a stand" on whatever issue they care about, then defending it by actions in game, and defining both their own, and their squad's beliefs and behavior. It's awesome to read the REAL player driven storyline. For PvPers, those guys ARE the storyline. I doubt there will be a huge storyline for you, ever, because the ones you make up are so much better.

Sure, there are the "3 year storyline" developments, the Amananthii, the Hyperials/Quant jihad, "Can we trust TRI?", the special secondary storylines, like the Katdinal story, but the ones that are important are the ones we weave into it. Where would the "assimilation" and Amananthii story aspects be without GrimFalcon and his prophecies? What would Octavia be without OEC, ION, or, omg... UZI?? What would you have as a "rebel" group if the KH crew and "The Gang" weren't around? Who would be the "bad guy" if Rollio weren't around? Say what you want about Rollio - he's the best pure "evil" guy in the game. Where would Pirates be without TDP? Quantar without Rostam, Rix, Tes? Who would be the true traders if not for UMEC and MA/MACK's examples? I miss Solrain Guard already. Where would the flux storyline be at on this server - like the EU server where all they can think to do is say "let's see if we can talk to the cute lil fellers!" BAH! We always need a New Dawn =) Besides, EP2 is our wet dream come true =) You won't be seeing much of us unless you come into flux space at that point I think =)

Anyway, I guess my point is this: The story is there for you to BUILD ON. That's not all there is. Sure, there's limitations to what you can do by yourselves, but the closer you can come to guessing where the story is headed, and place yourselves in a position to take advantage of it and incorporate yourselves into it, the more fun roleplay will be. We got lucky and stumbled on the chance of a lifetime for our squad. TDP is drooling at the thought of real pirate gear. I suspect you'll see an en masse return of TDP to it's "feared and evil bastich" status once EP2 comes around. Find a cool niche in the story, and stay there. See what you can make out of it. It may turn out bigger than you realize.
the hyperlink to this post is here

Last edited by MajorFreak on Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_Primo_ wrote:
I play jumpgate as a means of entertainment. I am who I am..._Primo_ is used on all games I play. Its simply a handle not a persona. I play online games for 2 reasons: 1-single player games are too predictible. I have never met an AI that was worth a flip. They offer little in the way of challenge. They don't talk to you, tell jokes, or anything remotly engaging. When is the last time you had an engaging conversation with a conflux member? 2-Real live players are everything that AI's are not. They are unpredictible, 10 times more challenging to guess thier next move, and well....they will interact with you in other way besides shooting at you. I have and continue to meet facinating players/people online. Games are much much much more fun when you have a group of people with common interest than just sitting looking at a screen for hours on end by yourself. Granted some players get under my skin but....thats not much different from real life is it now? Big difference....gaming allows me to meet folks from different cultures that I would otherwise never get to meet.

As for roleplay if thats your bag...go for it. Its just not mine. I have enough trouble keeping up with all the political posturing in this game as it is without having to figure out how a rp would fit into it.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:13 am    Post subject: I dont "roleplay". Reply with quote

I think Primo might be right. I was just having the same thought. I am not a roleplayer in the hardcore PnP DnD sense of the word. Characters I play in games tend to act the way I would act in that situation - or at least how I would like to act if I was ever faced with that dituation. My characters in RPGs are kinda like idealized versions of myself :)

Well - ok - in games like NWN I always take female characters but thats just because I find them more pleasing to look at. really.

But - the more a game forces me to interact with other people - the more I feel its important the character I project be more like me.

There is something backwards. In a PnP session you are sitting there with the other people. Playing a role is a fun worthwile thing to do as you already know the other people and you can appreciate how their characters deviate from the RL persona.

For internet games I - where you dont know the people youre playing with - too much roleplay I think is possibly bad - because it turns the other characters into AI. It becomes a farce. Why bother to play a game involving other people if you can never actually meet them, you can just navigate your character though interactions with their characters - where the characters personalities are arbitrally chosen? It is about as meaningful at that point as holding a conversation with the conflux - just a bit more unpredictable.

So me - I dont roleplay. And people who do - "roleplay" in mmorpg's - I shall just have to conclude are idiots and jerks because I'm never going to actually meet them in any meaningful way.

I need to work on these thoughts a bit longer I think - but thats the core of the idea so far.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baadf00d wrote:
There is no such thing as a MMORPG
Really. Roleplay happens in a specific enviroment by people who generally know each other. That is, roleplayers generally interact on both OOC and IC levels, and when its happening - its obvious by the context which is which.

Whith online games - the social cues present with real people are lacking so (a) its all but impossible to tell the difference between IC and OOC without clumsy pre-fixing, and (b) probably a very small % of players are actually competent roleplayers that partake in LARPs or PnP RPGs.

Normal roleplay does not happen in a persistent world as, well - most PnP games come with facy titles like "1 thousand interesting ways to die". PnP RP is very short term.

With a persistent world, where significatn effort goes into levelling a "character" - people become more attached to their characters and the detachment necessary for good "roleplay" goes out the window.

Plus id argue that roleplaying - actual detached roleplaying - is a waste of time in MMORPGs because you ply aMM games because of the social aspect of interacting with other people. If there is no strong OOC interfaction, and all interaction is IC, then it actually doesnt matter than other humans are involved - because you never meet them, or get any hint as to their real personality whatsoever.

I find it more rewarding to view Jumpgate as a game played by people, with (or against) other people. Anyone who behaved like an idiot is - for all intents and purposes - an idiot in real life. Roleplay doesnt come into it - if you meet baadf00d in game - be sure that you are meeting me - not some character ive decided to toy with for a while.

On Spoilers
As an extension to the above - if this was a true role play enviroment, spoilers would be all but impossible. Roleplaying is by definition a duality - there is the information *you* (the role player) knows - there is the information the character you are playing knows. *you* know that your character has 9/20 hitpoints, 1327 XP and a 1d4 barefist attack. Your character knows theyre bleeding and feeling rather bruised, has partaken in a small number of fights, and its going to take a while to pummel the opponent into submission.

In PnP RPGs players have access to the Players Handbook (or equilavent). They know the stats of weapons their character has never seen, the abilities of devices their character has never encountered, and what abilities their character is going to gain on level up. So it is with the stats and abilities of the POS.

A spoiler is when elements of how the storyline is going to go are revealed - and MG control the EU storyline and ND dont, so it is impossible for ND to emit spoilter materials - strictly speaking.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xindaan goes off about stuff
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kami wrote:
There is no RP in JG. You need consistency for that, if not from the GMs, then the players (a pipe dream).

Consistency = "without contradiction" (which usually falls flat because alot of the more tumultous player events are conducted by pilots who switch squad/pilot names like it's going out of style.)
    Contrasted Words incoherence, incongruity; impropriety, inappropriateness, unsuitability
Also of note is the very "quake in space" attitude that prevents attempts at putting the 'Honour' in "HG"
    Not to mention the evil nature of CASUAL civripping attributed to "anti-TRI/faction terrorism" (ie. rollio was the prime example of how to do this consistently) Consistency from Rollio was what made him respectable...hell, even i respected that in him even though i thought he was a crybaby who didn't say much for fear of being laffed out of the game for being a self-absorbed twat.
Too bad HONOURABLE squad RulesOfEngagement, RESPECTABLE bounty hunting and DECENT pirating actions are so curtailed by the inability to "carry" a perm.bounty (ie. negPR) and we're left with less and less people willing to put the effort into consistency when the very rules coded into the game automatically make your RP fly in the very face of reason.

ICA = ICC ("incharacter actions must translate to incharacter consequences")
BaadF00d wrote:
Being consistent with your roleplay IS being willing to accept the responsibilities. Its the people who jump roles, and who do OOC things (like swap credits from a trader to a civ ripper - and post this fact on the boards demanding that the accounts be treated seperately) who are inconsistent - inconsistent to avoid the consequnces of their previous actions - so they simply invent new RP for themselves.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give you an example - squik.
He shot at us, broke NAPs, lied, cheated ,etc etc etc.
Until we got mad at him.
He took one bounty on us through the entire "conflict" (if you can call a New Dawn vs anyone a conflict)
We took over 50. He is one stubborn bastard. He would not give us a NAP. Period.
I went to -100 PR on him - not once, but twice. He died over 50 times in one week.

As a side note: This very reason is why we've cultivated our NAPs so assiduously, and so single-mindedly.

I was not fired at ONCE - I've carried this bounty almost two months, and not a shot fired at me by any single other person on the entire server. I had an 800k bounty for over two weeks. I still have a bounty. But due to good diplomatics, good reputation, and a good public airing of why, how, and when I did it, noone from New Dawn was shot at a single time, period.

The bounty system is phucked. I didn't bother working it off, because he was so unreliable I was likely to have to do it again. Now he's joined OSP, and has plenty of people shooting at him (plus we have a NAP with OSP). I'll take my ICC. I'm a big boy, and I know how it works. I may not like it, but I know how it works, and I was justified to do it. But I don't know many others that could have pulled that feat off.

In fact, I carried a -100 sol bounty as well from blowing away a chauvanistic jerkoff that thought it was cool to mouth off to my g/f and proposition her in :help (rather lewdly, actually). He seemed utterly surprised I would kill him civ. Sucks for him.

Just an anecdote for how we use our RP, and why we do what we do - it's not because we're carebears, though we get accused of it for not fighting. It's not that we think fighting is "bad" - it's that no other squad has made killing flux their central RP to the degree we have. When the tags system went in was when we quit PvPing. It lost it's charm. Flux had just been added, and noone were "dedicated fluxhunters", so {ND}Falcon took it up.

The simple fact is that we don't want to be shot at in unreg, which is where the flux are. If we do, we have some of the best shots in the game. All we do every day is shoot at stuff... think we can't fight? heh heh heh... We have an IC reasoning behind everything we do. We don't fight pilots because it wastes manpower we could be using to fight flux. If someone keeps us from that goal, we deal with it as ruthlessly and quickly as possible, so we can get back to business.

If they switch civ after shooting us? Screw TRI, and their bounty rules. They will ride the pod until they give up - once you hit -100 PR, it no longer matters, so just split the kills up among 1-2 pilots. The NAPs are the buffer that keeps us free to police ourselves - if someone shoots at us, noone will be standing in between us and that pilot. They are completely open season.

If you're a PvP squad, the NAPs get more complicated. For a non-PvP squad, public facade is everything, and reputation is your playground - or you get the feeding frenzy. The one downside to our super-NAP-network is that we're quite possibly the safest squad to fly in, bar none. How is that a problem? The powergamers/power-levelers are *constantly* lying to us, leveling up under our tags, then leaving for PvP. This taints our neutrality, reputation, and our NAps, sometimes. We are among the most "up-to-date" pilots in Jumpgate on the subject of second accts, and who is flying who else. We don't like it, because it's 1) Annoying, and 2) Time consuming. But it happens - and happens a lot. People impose on our friendship, on our trust, and our reputation constantly. JG politics is a minefield. lol.

Just a short vignette about bounties, In-character consequences and their effect when you're NAP'd to the hilt, like we are.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

example of how NOT to roleplay
RubberDuck wrote:
Does it strike anyone else as surreal that someone has gone out of their way to grab all Displacers, effectively taking control of most artifact hunting, and the greatest ire that posters have here is for FRG's telling us that they know who did it?

Monopolies are bad for just about everyone. We should be thanking Isorg for threatening to expose those who would end the free trade of Displacers, and with them eventually artifacts in general. FRG could have simply kept this information for themselves and leveraged it to extort money from the perpetrators. They could have used their tracker to see the stripping coming and hoarded Displacers for themselves, telling no one and profiting later.

Instead they are out here in public battling those who prefer stripping in secret to taking responsibility for ones actions on the market. Were I Isorg, the vitriol of some posters in this thread would make me say to Hell with it, take my tracker home, and let the public realize how screwed they are when the arties dry up.

I salute FRG's defense of free trade of Displacers.

There is no margin for error, nor bluff, nor /ignore...and there's ALOT of *IC*/*OOC* reasons for =ESM= to completely ignore this "roleplay" (which was, unfortunately, what =FRG= decided was 1337 "roleplaying")
    this isn't roleplay at all. i can't define it, but i'm sure if you read this thread you'll understand the gist of why this breaks *IC*/*OOC* boundaries
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2003 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ventura wrote:
I just expect that if a squad bothers to post a policy, guidelines on how they are going to RP the game, that they should follow it. My mistake in thinking that a squad with a page titled Honor Guild would follow their posted Role Play. I won't make the same mistake with your squad.


Those that post a RP and do something else, I don't work with at all.

Notice how Ventura completely ignores the fact this statement was made in an *OOC* context with *OOC* terminology? (Not to mention it condones the sort of 'Enron' "regulatory" measures that covertly said, "say what you will, just don't get caught")
    Falling into the fallacy that if one's stated RP turns out to be false, it isn't called 'deception' or 'violating policy' in an *IC* sense, but implied that one is *OOC* incompetent about how to roleplay. (ie. If you don't say you're going to do this, then yer a lousy RPer)
Thumper's Mom wrote:
If yer not gonna say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

Personally, i've always found Ventura to be a stuck up prig even back when he whined and bitched about getting civripped while doing logistic duty for =Phoenix= as though HIS load of <insert uninsured gear> somehow elevated a squad war gank into "OMG TOS VIOLATION! GRIEFER GRIEFER!"

Ventura & Gander are excellent examples that Carebears assume they know how to "roleplay" just because their pilot's behavior is mostly engaging in 'non-pvp' activities. Not only that they get this sense of entitlement about lording 'it' over the Peasants.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the third consecutive post on "The Displacer Fiasco".

Just because a 3rd party program CAN access any and all info coming from NetDevil's server, does not mean this *OOC* access and permission (from ND/TRI/MG) to use a specific proggie translates directly to *IC* in a 'Carte Blanche' sense. (both access to TRI info and authority to speak for TRI)
    the sad thing is, GM_Moll and her MG counterpart have nothing explicitly stating this rule...I assumed they had. which is a pity. The only thing GM_Moll has on this subject is here, along with FRG's "authorization" statement
Unless TG was actually stupid enough to explicity have said OOC authority/access = IC authority/access. Personally, i think TG merely gave permission to use the proggie in a strickly OOC sense, and are just keeping mum. period

Not to mention FRG&ESM have obviously avoided any contact with TRI/TG in both an IC and OOC sense respectively. Which is a bloody shame and proof positive that noone trusts our 'CommunityServiceProviders' to do anything but play tiddlywinks with their own incestuous NDA storyline which they feed to us like it's some kind of privilege. (are they afraid we'll see through their plotholes and "suspense" like a badly written Harlequin Romance?)
    personally, i don't know why they think their storyline is so sacrosanct (EU and US server differences aside) that they need to keep it under NDA like soap opera producers keep the next "shocker" episode under wraps
Nothing can be a $#^^$@#% plot twist if we don't know what's to bloody TWIST in the first place, especially when spontaneous player events like this "displacer fiasco" fail to register as news worthy on a comparative level to vapid storylines like the "katdinal intrigue" articles (if you can FIND them; it's supposed to be a "privilege" to make the effort to do so) -- all this proves there's a disconnect between player run event organizers and TG at a level both take for granted.

Information should be available that we recognize a plot twist when it happens instead of a, "zzz *snort* hmm? storyline? EP2 here yet? hmph. zzzz"

Official NPCs and news on JOSSH that reflects the official storyline should give the same weight and context to player run events of note instead of seemingly waiting for that one perfect RP event that poses no risk to TG/MG/ND (but invariably blows the hell up in their faces)
    That is what gives this thread it's Raison d'entre
There's another point i'd like to make. That being the clumsy way 'CommunityServiceProviders' state their opinions. (just look at the OV/emperor "-100pr" threat in a purely abstract sense stripped of it's other meanings)...With such lax attitude between *IC* and *OOC* roleplaying terminology and mode of speaking, cannot one imagine that these same companies we trust to run our storylines are actually powergamers themselves?

I believe both TG and MG so misunderstand *IC* versus *OOC* and the dynamic interaction BETWEEN the two as to give the impression they don't know if they're coming or going. This becomes all the more painful when OOC and IC statements seem to be translated directly and understood to mean the same thing by a rather terrified community. (it's sort of like catching a child who's just found out where daddy's gun is kept)
    i trust ND/TG/MG as far as i can throw them. From the evidence of the past, present, and future plans i'd say everyone else is a fool if they do trust them
*shrug* I trust the judgement of numerous players and squads though...I trust that i've judged the opinions of other less reliable players and squads as well as TG/ND/MG. It is not hopeless to me -- i see a vibrant community that fosters initiative on the basis that the 'CommunityServiceProviders' can't even hope to screw things up badly enough because they can't even get two steps before tripping.

Unfortunately, that child doesn't seem to want to part with that fully loaded and fully automatic Glock, and there are worse things to harm than mere "storyline"

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect example of someone unclear on the concept (while actually believing they're hip and "with it")
    yes, i pick on Nazgul simply because they ARE the perfect example of what NetDevil has done wrong to attract lowlifes like this into our community that really wishes ND would get their ass in gear and stop perpetuating the "CIVigilante/HGanker" culture
That whole thread (all 225+ replies) is an example of what happens when one relies more on spindoctored *OOC* insults than researched *IC* ripostes...a perfect example because i think the lot of them haven't a clue what IC/OOC means, especially when it comes to dealing with Nazgul's deliberate OTT trolling which they call "Roleplay"

notice how Nazgul flippantly uses wordplay to powergame themselves into positions of "authority"'s that old lie about how "with great power cums great responsibility" (reminds me of people who don't give any respect but demand it in return)
    that is, until you're their peer...riiiiiight
*sigh* hypocrites'R'Us
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shrug* Any RP in a mmog is entirely selfish. why? Because it's always an attempt to broadcast one's own backstory. I think alot of people lose track of that motive and replace it with "for the good of the game/players/gms/blah" ('good intentions')
    easier to play the 'martyr' if things don't go one's way
Of course, those without any backstory lean heavily on 'good intentions' - case in point being the 'blockade amananth' stock drama. You can usually tell the losers because they'll react OutOfCharacter to any well thought out InCharacter critique of their "roleplay" (of course, you can tell the trolls by their InCharacter reaction to OutOfCharacter critiques)
    i'm postulating a theory that the line between fanboi and troll is very thin indeed - though that's a bit offtopic and probably belongs with the carebear/griefer dichotomy
Muffy wrote:
TRANSLATION: you've got to put yourself into the shoes of your faction. Me, i'd wonder (a) is that "Official" going to further my faction's role in the world of TRI, or is this yet another powerplay by some bit-player who's only going to sour our relationship with TRI or it's subdivisions?

Basically, one has to accept that most people's take on "RP" boils down to high school politics of the most banal sort. Not to mention the oft used "storyarc" of mmog GMs that amounts to your average TV-episodic (here today, gone next week) that amounts to...well...spam
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