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MG likes to gank n00bs

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: MG likes to gank n00bs Reply with quote

offtopic I've split this off from the parent thread which i've cleaned up and moved to Gameplay forum, here. My comments towards GMSilk have been cut&pasted here...

I was tickled pink they have a new Faction Mission that's lasting longer than a day...right up until i heard they repeated their old mistake that happened the first time i was around to bitch -- they killed a n00b on purpose (remember that old "TRI Rookies in Unreg" fiasco + "-100pr ov" bullshit?)
    looks like they think it's exciting to prove how dangerous the FM is to n00bs...Nibbles even went so far as to glibbly suggest <lvl15 can't take the mission. (completely ignoring the fact it's BEEN the only long lasting FM since the christmas bonanza)
Pity. i'd worked so hard to get the cool facts of the mission only to have it ruined by MG's pigheaded stubborn bigoted policies. YET AGAIN. So, please be on the alert. we have GM/OPs violating RoC by griefing n00bs in the mistaken impression they aren't mirroring what the very connotation of griefer is.
GMSilk wrote:
Ok, we agree that RS and the noob met the sent several times already. So they knew it was around. If I was in a situation where I couldn't expect to win a fight with a sent, doing something that I know would make the sent mad at me and then see a sent and managing to get away, I either try to get the hell out of there or take the risk and hope I don't meet it again. If RS would have fought the sent, the noob would have had enough time to flip the beacon and run. If the noob had run straight away, he would have escaped. But RS choose not to fight to buy time for the noob and the noob flew to the beacon and flipped it while the Sent was flying straight towards him singing songs. Even with these blatant mistakes, the noob would have escaped if he had tried to evade a bit, as the sent was intentionally trying to miss.

[irony]*shrug* seems cut and dried to me...looks like the sent was in the right...i mean, christ! it's not like the damned thing tubecamped the n00b -- in fact, according to this [spindoctor] it's the extreme opposite of griefing.[/irony]
Problem is...what the hell was a sentient even doing within sensor range of a n00b? That's like some cop busting the local pot dealer while some freak coke dealer sells his stuff on main street...There's enough excitement for n00bs without some bored sent pilot thinking "scaring" a n00b is 1337 RP.

I don't care if you plaster BIG NEONS SIGNS of warning...You've made yer bed, now sleep in it GM_ROC; If you want to gank n00bs be prepared to be judged by the same rules you enforce as "GMs" (personally, i think a GM killing a n00b for any reason is griefing)
    WTF do you think i have a big "TRI Rookies" is under probation for risking n00b lives at the top of my n00b FAQ. sheeesh
It be great if MG employeers weren't so bloody pig-headed and actually realized they screwed up here, there and practically everywhere when it comes to our community. (news flash! n00bs actually don't enjoy being raped, mr.clueless; and i'll bet they use the same 'stfu carebear' argument. sounds familiar...)

Ah yes, once again MightyGames proves beyond a shadow of a doubt they never learn from their mistakes since it's easier to DENY making them than using the old noggin instead of yer gonads! (i suppose they even think the entire server uniting against their sentients is somehow "good RP")
    ten to one they think n00b ganking is now a good way to get free publicity about a new FactionMission
puke way to go 'powertripping' morons! wtg

Xyleth wrote:
3) The 'Sents = PC ships in another guise and should act as such' camp vs the 'Sents = force of nature and should be respected / feared' camp aren't going to give any ground.

helllllooo, mcFly!! *knock knock* Look, sunshine, that's exactly the sort of mindset vigilantes use when attacking any and all bountied pilots. (remember the 303 failed mission n00bs that got "un-griefed" of olde?)
    i don't bloody expect sentients to follow any other RP than a sentient, especially having to civrip to justify their RP - except you think i will condone n00b ganking by anyone??


  1. unprovoked ganking. not armouring or chasing till petalled. GANK RIP PODDED!
  2. below level 10 - i can get a goddamned n00b to level 10 within 5 hours for crying out loud, and that's not even counting /wingman powerlevelling (i usually take on rank n00bs. you know, like NEW PLAYERS!!)
  3. regulated space. this wasn't unreg, this was a location where the only Faction Mission since the ones during Christmas are happening...yes, there are warnings, but you'd assume *OOC* that a sent would never grief kill a n00b. (i mean, bloody hell! that's what griefers get banned for, damnit!)
  4. and let's not even get into the fact this n00b was a civilian registry tagged (unbountied too boot.)
  5. and the completely irrelevant point that the n00b probably wasn't in a squad that was at war with the offending squad. (besides, who the hell would be in a squad that publically flaunted it's ability to get away with ganking n00bs of any sort anywhere?)
  6. i could go on. there's just no end to the silliness

WTF is wrong with people these days that they'll swallow any garbage like apathetic slugs?

Last edited by MajorFreak on Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:54 am; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quantar Sword Optimus and Squad roster.

Hassium ? BongsAway ? Suran ?

according to QS' squad's roster list, he's their training wing's leader with a number of initiates.

experience matrix for a level 8. (69k-89k XP)
    Do you realize the number of krakens ganked by wingman to get 15k XP is just five c8. just five. compared to patrolling every sector in aman faction space.
i'm going to start collecting facts here. layman terms so i can collect enough data to fry MG. PR disaster? What, did MG think i roll over and play dead when someone ganks a n00b? Sorry, a non-n00b according to MG officials, regardless of the fact i get a medal for mentoring someone till lvl10. (maybe they should lower that, eh? and get rid of that n00b shields. it's too exploitable according to Xyleth's train of thought)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 4
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) The above was a rather poor flame, imo. Some reasonable points spoilt by a smattering of bad language. I have never yet come across a incident where the use of such language has enhanced the users ability to make their point, and seeing as I consider you to be an otherwise rational and intelligent person Muffy I do sometimes wonder why you persit in using it so much.

2) 'it's too exploitable according to Xyleth's train of thought'

Do not presume to follow my train of thought. There are days when even I have trouble with it, so for someone who is not currently inside my head it ought to be neigh on impossible.

I do not think that NooB shileds are exploitable in any meaningful fashion. There are a number of factors I can think of (which I'll list if requested) that limit the usefulness of NooB accounts in anything but highly specific combat scenarios. However an artied NooB ship, espically a Gust, would be ideal for the kind of beacon running the current Amanthi FM entails, thus making them eminently exploitable in that context.

NooBs do need protecting. But if you protect them too much all you'll end up with when they leave the officall 'NooB Zone' is a level 15 NooB who still doesn't really understand the game and who is ill eqquiped to deal with the risks his new status brings him. This is not good for either the NooB in question or the server as a whole.

Your passionate defence of NooBs rights is admirable Muffy, but be sure you are not harming their longer term intrests in the name of their short term pleasure.

If you really want to keep flogging this I'll happily discuss this with you until the cows come home, hell freezes over and we're both old and grey. There are few things I enjoy in life more than a really good debate, and when you strip out the fluff you give some of the best I've come across (sounds rather dirty :-p ). I have to say there are moments I feel utterly outcalssed by you, but I am a quick learner.

However if you could cut back on the profanities and unfounded insults directed towards my parentage, inteliigence and sexual orientation it'd be appriceated :)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a hit! a palpable hit! Look, as far as i'm concerned i don't poison my blade. Which is probably why you bother with this repartee. (on the other hand, OP-Toast is getting on my nerves with his semantic trivia games)
    when you correct me, it seems you understand my main point anyways so i don't bitch too much.
NooBs do need protecting. But if you protect them too much all you'll end up with when they leave the officall 'NooB Zone' is a level 15 NooB who still doesn't really understand the game and who is ill eqquiped to deal with the risks his new status brings him. This is not good for either the NooB in question or the server as a whole.

Look, it's not my bloody fault that MG increased the payout to 15k from ~5k for that mission and didn't realize how doubly unfair the only faction mission to last more than a few days is out of their reach. (the doubly bit comes from the fact they're not supposed to be doing it anyways)
    take away that major carrot and we're still left wondering about the stick
Let me ask you a plain question, stripped bare of fluff, so to speak player
"If MG had never raised the XP for that FM would you still consider unbountied civ n00bs fair game in regulated space to sentients in support of a storyline/event symbiosis?" (as an aside, i think it's wonderful they do such a great job of spicing up a FM. And, yes i'll give them kudos for making it more attractive to veterans)
    my only beef, of course, is that the coding of FMs doesn't allow scaling (bonus proportional to level)...the beef being that because they can't scale it they should realize that a n00b being able to go from lvl0 to 10 by "flipping" 60 beeks shows remarkable piloting skills -- remember that by dying at aman you get sent waaaaaay back to your faction home. (though removing that carrot just strengthens my case against the stick)
You must realize that in the time it takes to flip 10 beeks and gain 15k, you'd gain the same XP by being the wingman of some vet who just purgatoried 5 krakens...And you talk to me about powerlevelling rank n00bs? That's probably on the same level as arguing to keep /give because one likes playing santa claus. (there's enough bloody ways to twink out n00bs that don't involve flipping 10 beeks in a row)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daishi wrote:
Muffy I wish you would just get over this.

It has been explained by most until they are blue in the face, nothing is going to change the fact that this game is not centered around you and your perceptions on how it should be;
A. Played
B. Managed
Sentients have been around for ages. We have all coped with impact thier strengths and dangers have had on the game. If people choose to ignore these facts and think they should be protected then maybe Jumpgate is NOT the game for them.

Please stop your just making everyone unhappy.

The public reply i gave on the MG news forum thread was cleaned up. here is my first reply that i deleted before posting:

what gives you the right to cry into a box of tissues and say I'M making everyone unhappy? Jeezuz. i've got about as much right as you to speak my mind about an issue dear to me...and i've already stated i've withdrawn my argument because Spawn32's logic is undefeatable. What makes you think i have to agree just because i cannot form a proper argument in response?

I bloody don't agree that i've made anyone unhappy. far from it, it seems i've only entertained the wynars. You just had to get your goody-goody opinion in and pretend you didn't just flame me? My god, man. I said i was defeated by logic and you continue to bitch? Who's the one with a poor sense of sportsmanship?

hell, i even rolled my sleeves up earlier today and thought up a concrete suggestion within an hour. start to finish. It's here:
    personally, i gained alot of really good quotes from that "flame war" you so disparage. it's over now, and i wish instead of responding to your disgusting display of cowardice, i could have posted the suggestion. but, gotta cry like a baby and call me a mean troll.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If MG had never raised the XP for that FM would you still consider unbountied civ n00bs fair game in regulated space to sentients in support of a storyline/event symbiosis?"

Depends on where. In any of the home sectors then probably not (with the possible exception of places like Mokks and Outer Third). However for reasons I've listed elsewhere (and you quoted) I think Aman is something of a special case in this regard. So yes, provided appropiate warnings were in place and the Sents weren't actively hunting NooBs (i.e. the noob acutally has to go somewhere and annoy a sent to get himself killed) then I would still consider them 'fair game' as you put it.

You must realize that in the time it takes to flip 10 beeks and gain 15k, you'd gain the same XP by being the wingman of some vet who just purgatoried 5 krakens...And you talk to me about powerlevelling rank n00bs?

I do realise that, and I don't recally specifically bringing up the problem of powerlevelling Noobs. It's connected certianly but I was focusing on the issue of them getting killed somewhere they shouldn't really be.

I read your suggestion by the way. It's a nice idea and I think it'd work really well, but I'm not sure that MG have the tools at their disposal to pull it off well yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by tools you mean the know... *muffy raps noggin* ? (remember, i didn't say XP should be scaled as part of my list of suggestions. Yes, i stated it as a wishlist thing for sure, but it wasn't included in the [list] bit was it? If you were referring to the guts of my [list] as impossible, then i'd remind you it can be eyeballed, right?)
    yes, i do agree with the rest of your post, and have stated as much publically that i don't have a decent argument to counter Spawn32's irrefutable logic...Besides, i think you know agreeing to disagree doesn't mean i can't add constructive criticism. thanks for the thumbs up.
oh wait! i understand. no, all the suggestions i listed ARE possible. i've talked to NewDawn pilots and gotten enough info about how infestations work that the suggestion about the scaled armour is correct and possible....As for the other stuff? it's pretty darned possible to string a bunch of faction missions over a month or two. 10 FMs at ~5k for one sector patrol is pretty darned nice.

for example. here is a pic i've been working on that shows regular Patrol mission stats...(working on mission balance and stuff other than FM info, but it's relevant)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oldfenster wrote:
By having sents killing noobs, you already sent a precedent. Now the killing newbies has become a gray area (why is MG allowed an pilots not?) while it could have stayed perfectly black and white.

Its not crucial to the "sent RP" to kill noobs. We all know regular flux with take care of them.

If i remember correctly, the first engagements with sents ever on this server, i didnt see any pilots get killed by the sents.

:urstupid: That's the best argument that anyone's come up with to rally against Spawn32's irrefutable logic. (see n00b primer)...(un)fortunately, this counterattack was flawed and didn't get off the ground. nice try. don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

OP-Toast wrote:
If MG could trust all pilots only to attack newbies when their RP strictly demanded it, then the griefing RoC would be lifted. As it is, they've got plenty of reason not to trust the playerbase to do anything on the sort, so they don't. On the other hand, they DO trust the OP/GM team (or more accurately, they only recruit people they think they can trust, and then slap a load of NDAs and stuff on them to make sure), which is why we are allowed to kill new pilots ocasionally, in a limited way, when it's approved by a high-up and according to strict RoE (they don't trust us _that_ much, don't worry). Think I'm digressing again - going to stop talking now if that's ok with everyone

ditto Yes, but who watches the watchers? (ooo! famous quote. must go look for origin)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically, the problem I have with this is that I'm just as real in game as sents are, yet I am expected to be nice to noobs and they are not. My character would just love to wipe every quant and sol noob off the face of the galaxy - why let them get in to a tensity or phoon?

Take that fm around Pulsar where OV blockaded it, for example. When a newbie went for that beacon, I warned it not to go through. If it continued, I fired off a German macro. If it still continued, I shot it to armour. If it continued, assuming it's evasive manouveurs didn't show it to be a vet in a newbie account I just let it go through. Yet sents are allowed to just rip anything they feel like.

Examining the reasons for the sents attacking the noob turns up that it was doing an FM that the sents didn't like, and of course that the conflux want to kill TRI ships anyway. In my case, I had to look after ships from an enemy faction that were doing an fm that I didn't like.

Newbie protection is totally OOC. You can't apply IC reasoning to it. I leave newbs alone because OOCly I want new players to stay in the game. Someone (I think it was OP-Toast) said that if players were thinking of sents as GMs/OPs we had a problem. I don't think so. People think of other players as the people behind their character, and I resent the implication that I am less 'real' in this universe than sents are.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dude. exactly. I am soooooo pissed off they can't think up some *IC justification* not to. it's so bloody simple (take my 'Predator' movie example)
    there is no way that the sentient RP cannot be modified to include the no-n00b-gank motivation...there's endless ways of tweaking an RP motivation for anything. it's just stupid...the only problem is that noone's come up with a counter to spawn32's logic, and thus we are stuck in a catch 22.
how do we rationaly explain how we feel. it's insane really. i cannot in good conscience ever -- EVER -- agree to this "oh we must not allow n00bs to think sentients are..."

*shrug* :( i don't know how to complete that sentence. if i did, i'd be able to rationally combat spawn32's logic. there is something though, and that's my ability to keep my ear to the grapevine. someone, somehwere, somehow will come up with an argument that shows how shallow, infantile and grossly 'something' the current sentient RP is.

i am The archivist. it will happen. it's only a matter of time. when that time comes, my friend, i will bury MG.

and you can take that to the bank.

when that time comes, i'll be out for blood in some serious way and it would take GMPiuX himself to stop me cold.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP-Toast wrote:

Nicator, if I were you in that situation I'd have eventually killed it (pretty much identical circumstances to what we're discussing here), and if I were dealing with that as an OP/GM I'd have no problem with it - granted it was unreg versus reg here, but I don't think the warnings on those FMs were as harsh as the ones we're discussing here. Moreover, if I had my way any "griefing" would initially be dealt with by TRI, which has clear ways to deal with its pilots. It can do nothing at all about the flux. If (as I'd like the situation to be but sadly have no power to implement it) the "anti-griefing rules" said things like "If you kill low-level pilots without cause TRI will remove your flight clearance, thus removing the OOC element from it entirely.

hm and you wonder why i DIDN'T leap at the invite to be an OP? look what i'd have to deal with daily! (in just his opening sentence he's proven the MG team have nooooo idea whatsoever what the community feels is honourable behavior, unless you think Nazgul's middle name is "honour" - let's not even mention the fanboi talking-heads.)
    they are SO *OOC* about their *IC* behavior it's comical...they feel that since they own the server, that gives them the sense of entitlement not to think up ways to *IC justify* not to act like the lowest common denominator
And we don't even need to hear any more from MG, since GMSilk's comment i quoted about was their viewpoint. "what is good is MG's and what is MG's is good" (never noticing most of the damn server just roll their eyes and gives the 'nod and agree' genufluction.)
    i don't think they've figured out we do not NEED (pragmatically speaking) to have them understand anything but how to reset the server properly and burp up our billing status efficiently. (it's just a philosophical question i'm asking anyways, isn't it? nazgul thinks they own the server too...we just 'nod and agree' while rolling our eyes as well)
rant Like MadCat loves to say, "Diplomacy is like saying 'nice doggy' as one looks for a rock"
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
well, that about wraps it up as far as i'm concerned. they can zip their lips, we'll just continue as before...It's not like this whole fracas was a big surprise. They've always sadly misunderstood the community mindset. (at least the one i thought was "honourable")
    anyways, that *IC justification* i just linked to has the best hope of a compromise while i go find that rock to smack them silly with.
Arthur Calwell wrote:
It is better to be defeated on principle than to win on lies.

ah bugger it, i'd rather go lick rocks than toilet train MG. :P
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