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Advanced Economy 101

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 7:20 am    Post subject: Advanced Economy 101 Reply with quote

formatting by Muffy
Baadf00d wrote:
Re: A Question for GM Jossh
I would like to know at what level or number of units does the decay rate take effect.
Decay in the past was set to only decay item stocks past 2000 units.

I'm asking because last night I hauled 3,000 phosphorrus to tripoint and this morning there is none at tripoint. My first 500 only 46 units were used by the station I ask people in the game and no one knows or will say what the new rate is they say only GM Jossh knows cause he set the decay rate.
This is not unexpected. The 46 units that initially dissapeared would have been the units that filled up the station hidden storage. So now we know - hidden inventory for Pho at Tripoint is 46 units. Thereafter - every 6 minutes - the station would have used some Phosphorous to make Gravitational Components - and possibly Fuel Cells. In addition - while it boggles the mind - less civic minded pilots probably noticed the stash of Phosphorous, and took it to other stations.

Ok what is the new decay rate.
The decay rate is still 1% per hour. The stock level necessary to trigger decay is not known exactly. I would like to know the over all effect of this as well. The overall effect is difficult or impossible to predict. Basically the effect is that any commodities or equipment that have production limits that are greater than the commodity or equipment decay threshhold levels will never reach its production limit, and will constantly be manufactured for as long as commodities are available. This means that a lot of commodities that are normally available now tend to get used up.

I hual commods from station to station and just want to know am i wasting my time doing this as it seems I am.
The #1 pilot in kills per hour manages over 1 rip per hour. By position #100 - thats down to .3 kills per hour. PvP pilots are the only real source of demand in Jumpgate - they cause (and are) the need for new equipment. Each PvP pilot then, from most prolific to 100th most prolific - causes a demand for .5 replacement ships per hour. Now - lets consider cargo pilots - who supply this demand. They supply the demand by moving commodities around such that the commodities can be turned into equipment. Most cargo loads are light, and a cargo mission can easilly be completed in an hour. Possibly only 30 minutes in fact. Lets presume that cargo pilots move 500 units per hour.

The rule of thumb with equipment production recipes seems to be that approximately .1 unit of each component is used to make 1 unit of equipment. Lets make the simplifaction too that each piece of equipment uses 5 components. that means .5 units of source material produce a piece of equipent - a tow load of commodities - 500 units - is good to make 1000 pieces of equipment. The average ship needs at least 5 pieces of equipment, counting in guns & missiles, a full kit clocks in at 15 pieces of gear. A single tow, per hour, produces enough gear to re-equip 66 ships.

Each PvP pilot remember causes a demand for .5 ship re-equips per hour. So, as a general proportion, the economy needs, for every 132 PvP pilots - 1 cargo pilot to produce enough equipment to keep the fight going. Now, obviously this is a gross oversimplifaction. However, at each step I think the order of magnitude is about right, so the actual requirements of hte economy should really be within 10x of that figure. So, a ration somewhere between 1:10 and 1:1000 cargo to PvP pilots is ideal. Any cargo pilots over that ratio are wasting their time feeding decay. Any less and decay wouldnt be a problem.

On the economy there is not one player here qualified to fix the economy it seems all they want to do is kill the economy for their own selfish intrests. Please don't let them do that. It would destroy this game for the rest of us that play it.
Only the developers who made this game should decide on what course it should take not the player base because of jaded intrests of their own.

Ah.... ok.

    The economy must not so much be "fixed" as actually implemented. And DuoDecimal had collected contributions from a number of pilots in a big thread of economy fixes. If only a small portion of the ideas there collected were implemented the cargo pilots life today would be a good deal more meaningfull than the simple farm or feed decay thing we currently are forced into.

<out>


Go here for JG Economics 101


Last edited by MajorFreak on Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:44 am; edited 19 times in total
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What comes as a further faction worsening the ratio of traders vs. PvPers are overlapping production centers which make some possible cargo runs unnecessary when the required 1st tier for the local 2nd tier production is produced there too.

It's an awfully good post by Baadf00d, I was heading to here to see if someone already cited it, heh. ;)
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's some old stuff on this topic:

not sure if this is still appropriate...
Quote:
Scorch Explains the new Economy
OFF TOPIC: (taken from http://www.ianstorm.com/worlds/jg/ )
- Posted By Alton - 3:30:36 PM

Last night, after the patch a few people were left wondering how the new system would work, So I being one of them sent out the question and heres the answer I got.


The way the new economy works (basically) is that every so often the
station receives the raw materials from the nearby planet. These are scaled
by the number of players online at the time. Then the server looks at its
inventory and tries to build what seems to be needed at the time. As the
server gets more and more of a particular item it will begin to build less
until it stops building it altogether. Having lots of an item is needed so
that prices can be different from station to station in terms of quantity in
stock. Also, whether a station "needs/produces" a particular item plays a
role in the price the station is willing to pay. A station should cycle at
least every 5 minutes so that players who are waiting for something to be
built should not need to wait long and players who are looking for items to
trade should be able to find what they are looking for quickly as well.

This, on the other hand, is appropriate
Baadf00d wrote:
Given that I cannot partake on ingame channels, and, well, people asking for "easy to implement modifactions" to an engine that they actually dont understand... I thought I should at least say what I know of how the market functions - at least as far as how pricing works.

First, there are some global variables.
1. the base tax rate on commodities (1%)
2. the "fully stocked" level. (2000 items == fully stocked).
3. the price change per cycle. (currently 1%)

Then there are control variables per commodity :-
The max profit for each commodity is set once for all stations (afaik at least).

Then, on a per station basis, for each commodity there are:
1. The current stock quantity.
2. The commodities base price.
3. The commoditiies current price.

In addition, each commodity has an ideal price which is calculated using the commodities base price, max profit & current stock on hand values. The ideal price is calculated first by checking if there are more than the fully stocked quantity of units on hand (currently 2000), if theres more than 2000 units, for the purposes of this calculation the number 2000 is used. The ideal price is equal to the base price, plus the commodities max profit markup, multiplied by the current stock on hand, divided by 2000.

The ideal price is the price that the current price would become given enough cycles. The price change per cycle (currently 1%) defines how quickly the current price approaches the ideal price - each cycle, 1% of the difference between the current and ideal price is added to the current price. Compounded as it is, it takes 4 hours (About) for the current price to travel halfway from its initial price to the ideal price.

So, any proposal that does involves simple tweaks to things like the commodity tax rate, the fully stocked level etc. would require little to no coding. Anything else, is going to require little to lots coding.

BaadF00d wrote:
The Scientific American is running an article discussing the enviromental impact of producing CPU's. The critical lines are:
"the manufacturing of a typical two-gram chip takes 1.6 kilograms of fossil fuel, 72 grams of chemicals and 32 kilograms of water."
and
"the materials involved in making a 32-MB RAM microchip total 630 times the mass of the final product.".

Which provide some interesting clues as to how backwards the JG economy is.


Last edited by MajorFreak on Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nicator
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2002 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hail hail hail hail hail

How on earth does he find that stuff out?
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MadCat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2002 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By hauling crap all day long =P
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farming (another look)
That's a crossreference to a UMEC flame war thread with cascading links.

Plus, there was a comment made one another thread at the same time...
BaadF00d wrote:
The lack of follow through in the market mechanics. The space sim itself adheres to good physics - admitedly we're actually playing more of a submarine simulator, but thrust and mass and drag are all accounted for in logical ways. The market hoever, both in its pricing, and general production mechanics, does not look feel or act as though it was designed to act like a real economy. It feels like a placeholder economy, tossed in at the last minute designed to appease the trader segment of the game, without making the developers spend much time on an aspect of the game they patently dont give a flying f**k about.

The economy - as it stands - is an insult to players that would play the economy as traders, rather than layers with other objectives that simply need to back a fast buck, and/or produce some equipment.
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GM_Hollis wrote:

To get 1000 Morning Stars, you need 4 Copper, 64 Silicon, 4 Germanium, 2 Indium, 1 Silver, 2 Aluminium, 1 Gold, 209 Chemicals, 4 Gallium, 4 Phosphorous, 240 Barium, 240 Magnesium (locally produced, though), 40 Chromium, 40 Zinc, 40 Carbon, 40 Molybdenum.

hmmm, 15 commodities, 895 commodities. Which is closer to a 1:66 cargo to pvp pilot. if other equipment follows this pattern closely.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iceman's ingredient list from waaaaaay back is on mindphyre. we'll have to wait a bit to access it again, but i'd like to crosscheck this data to see if they've changed it. (i think he did morningstars...or was it screwdrivers?)
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iceman's posting was quoted here.

Edit: If other equipment follows closely - the bulk of the commodities in the calculation above (it matches the table given by Iceman) results from the high use of Explosives (12 Explosives for 10 MS) and Synthetics (2 Synthetics for 5 Morning Stars) - depends if other equipment has similar high-use parts.


Last edited by Xindaan on Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah - sorry for the incomplete quote. GM_Hollis made that list FROM the Iceman data.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WHAT?!!?!? the fucker didn't ...oops, excuse my French...You mean that's simply him playing with a calculator? wooooooo impressed is me. (what i mean is, that info's soooooo old we can't take it seriously at all.)
    until someone confirms that data, and i believe Hollis is in a position to do so on the staging server thingie
I wonder if someone can get ND answer the POS factory ingredient information. will it be like the buildings we have now at a 1-1 ratio or will POS factories use the market cycle stuff? I'd much prefer the latter since we'd be able to figure out the ratios ourselves. (and why the hell can't we be able to figure them, huh? huh!?!)
    on the one hand ND allows cheating, exploits and full on griefings. on the other they disallow us basic market info? lol. come on!
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
WHAT?!!?!? the fucker didn't ...oops, excuse my French...You mean that's simply him playing with a calculator? wooooooo impressed is me.


Someone is in a good mood today, isn't he? ;)

The above calculation was most likely presented in a context to visualize something. I seriously doubt it was blurted out just for the fun of it with no reason. Baadf00d found it worthwhile to cite it here as well, after all, despite it being just a different representation of the Iceman data.

(Edit: Oh, posting got extended. 1-1 for POS would certainly be better, yes. A large part of Baadf00d's calculations on top of this thread for each trader supporting ~100 PvPers depend on the high production efficiencies.)
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