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just musing (what's "moral sandbagging"?)

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:10 pm    Post subject: just musing (what's "moral sandbagging"?) Reply with quote

Warning! stream-of-consciousness!

"Moral Sandbagging"
i've heard it a few times and i think it's an allusion to golf cheating. I don't play the game myself but www.google.com pointed me to a site that said it was, using my own words, lowering your standards so you look good once you prove otherwise. (some really esoteric handicap scoring system. yick)
    since i have experience in dealing with JumpGate trolls, the analogy would be to say something opposite than what your agenda is (but flawed) and later correcting your "mistake" therefore crippling your opponents.
I'm damned sure this can be classified using the "illogician tactics" glossary, but first, i just remembered RL. Yes. now where is that quote...
Noam Chomsky wrote:
vigorous debate within a frame work of fixed and unquestionable presuppositions. that those presuppositions is the propaganda line...an effort to do good - and then we can debate the tactics. (tactical)

See, i stated a really good example of RL "moral sandbagging" here that dealt with "doves" helping to promote war with Iraq by claiming the USA is after access to the oil, not because of the war on terrorism. (highly flawed, but skillful)

Okay, let's just confirm the denotation of "moral sandbagging" just in case i goofed on the definition...hmmmmm. there's another connotation that involves negotiations. political sandbagging to prevent reform by stating the intended method of change has been nipped in the bud. hmmmmm
    1) flawed system 2) replacement of that with "better" 3) blocking that by changing context and saying relationship with #2 is flawed even more than flawed #1.
ahhh..of course, one goes about protesting #2 when in actual fact you wanted that "reform" to be brought forth in the first place because you knew it was being scuttled. ooooooooo.
:)-

Ah, to use layman terms (just found it while looking at union disputes) it's apparently to mean: "Not negotiating in good faith"...it apparently also connotes "stalling and trying to derail via other means" (which to me sounds like a classic "delaying action"; visions of the spartans at the pass)

Problem is i still have no clue about the moral sandbagging and it's context. what context would it be used in?

oh wait a minute, i think it's got something to do with "well, everyone does it" (the counter to this would be "just because something illegal is done in public, doesn't mean it's okay")...having a hard time figuring that one into the equation. hmmmmmm

ah. found something in lawyer speak
post-closing indemnification wrote:
On the topic of post-closing indemnification, I'll begin by addressing the issue of "sandbagging." Sandbagging is a term used to describe the ability of the acquirer to rely on its right to be indemnified with respect to an inaccurate representation of the target, notwithstanding the fact that the acquirer knew from the very beginning that the target's representation was inaccurate.
    so what the hell's post-thingie-whatsit? ahhhhhhh NM! omg scary stuff. okay, let's just stick with 'indemnification' whatever the hell that means...ah, found it. in layman's terms it's similar to "insurance"
oh ho! okay, sandbagging translated from lawyer speak to layman terms means, "Sandbagging means relying on the fact you're gonna get away with something even if people find out you knew they didn't know you knew"
insane

ahhhhhhh...i know what "moral sandbagging" means now! It's Chutzpah! And there's a very famous example of that.
poster child of chutzpah wrote:
A classic example of chutzpa is someone who kills his father and mother, then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.

perfect! now all i have to do in order to wrap this up is find the "illogician tactic" that matches this and i'm "good to go"
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Nellie
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Joined: 06 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I frequently spend many a happy hour pootling round these forums Muffy. I was particularly taken with the broken window theory that cropped up somewhere. A wealth of fascinating if not entirely useful information on the off topic side of things (the value of the JG and other bits is beyond question, he says, trying desparately to dig upwards :D).
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disclaimer: this post, in it's entirety doesn't use "stream-of-consciousness" (ie. it's highly edited for clarity)

offtopic
glad you enjoyed. i hardly ever get a chance to use "stream-of-consciousness" in a single post. most of the time it's counterproductive...actually, you know the funny thing? I do this sorta thing while mentoring n00bs. it's like you deliberately force amnesia on yourself and ask yourself what questions you would want to ask and that way anticipate the student's next question -- in a way that the context you've forced yourself into translates to being able to talk in your student's language (ie. walking a mile in the other's mocassins)

ontopic
you know the irony of this post is that the above is actually diametrically opposed to the thread's topic...in that the person "sandbagging" uses a kind of 'socratic irony' not to instruct but to cheat.
    FFS
    I always thought the socratic method to be pedantic tripe anyways. arrogant tosser that Plato was. lol Anyways, i use 'socratic irony' to connote not only instruction but also doublespeak. BTW, note that my method of instruction i do not consider 'socratic irony' at all since it's an internal dialogue and i doubt Mr.Plato used that very often. the elitist prick. ooops! bad me. HAHA but it's the flame war forum so i don't care.
okay, i'm still procrastinating about looking up the "illogician tactic"...bleh
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