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HW Ships - The True Scale Debate

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 am    Post subject: HW Ships - The True Scale Debate Reply with quote

Ammom Ra wrote:
They intended the ships to have realistic sizes, but the saw that the fighters were almost invisible compared to the MS and frigs etc... so they made the NLIPS so that they could scale the model so that the fighters were more visible...

there we go, i think that that is the reason: They INTENDED the ships to be realisticly sized, but the gameplay went down, cuz the fighters were as good as invisible, so they put in the NLIPS to increase gameplay.

SvK's impression of the sizes (trebmal_ca's in the upper left)

"Units != Meters"
Mokona wrote:
To clear a few things up:

As I explained in the other thread, these numbers are there for arbitrary reasons. The "units" used are there so that we can measure relative distances. They are not meters, nor cm, nor feet. The ships were made, and then scaled afterwards to make it look good. We didn't say, "AH! Taiidan scout.. Hmm, it says 46.94m so let's make it 46.94 units." During the creation of the ship, it just so happened that it came out to be 46.94 units long. If you want to believe that means 46.94m by all means do, but that is one awfully large fighter craft.

These two camps in the massive debate over at Relic Boards has birthed a new forum just for the topic. see here

Last edited by MajorFreak on Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mokona wrote:
AFAIK (since this was admittedly before my time at Relic, but I did ask around) the ships were scaled to their respective MSes on a case by case basis with the dual objectives of making them looking both aesthetically pleasing and playable. Thus, there is no "true scale."
Apparently, this was true for both UOM and NLIPS scaling
Mecha wrote:
Seriously, one ship is chosen as the base scale and all the others are sized to look good compared to it, then nlips are adjusted to make some ships bigger than they should be when you zoom out to aid in ship identification and to reduce confusion in a battle. this debate was finally put to rest when the gavel came down and all that was left to conclude was that the "Units != Meters" won convincingly...problem now was to figure out what was the TRUE TRUE SCALE for use in not only an updated "true scale MOD" but ship blueprint designs (akin to fan fiction of course for the latter)

[08:31] <MajorFreak> [08:27] <Starfisher> all the true scale did was remove nlips, therefore reducing the meshes to their true scale - not a meter true scale, a mesh true scale yes, thanks for defining what the JAL-18 mod did. i wonder if it was a mistake while a few ships with mesh sizes or if it was a scaled thing with MS being accurate for TRUE TRUE scale?
[08:32] <Starfisher> For the latter, Coincidence...or more likely the modellers just took that number and arbitrarily assinged others to the other ships keep in mind, they probably werent that concerned about the actual meter measurements - 7km sounded good for a super huge ship - all the other stuff was scaled too 'look good' against that. They probably didnt sit there thinking, "Well the ships need thick armor, big energy systems and bug guns, so +10 to size for each...
trebmal_ca wrote:
Mok as Uber pointed out, the books and the game itself have the mothership at 7 km (7000m)
And the Game model is 7014 HW units.
if this is true, then the model in the game is not the size of a fighter. What Im saying is what was the benchmark object to judge the size of the ships?

Oh I have been hanging around the Maya discussion forums and there is a Maya to Autocad scale factor it is 2.54 or imperial to metric. from Maya you have to scale up 2.54 times, and from Autocad you have to scale down .393 or 1/2.54. What this means is the Maya working enviroment is decimal feet. That would mean the MS is 7000 feet tall and a intercepter is 56 feet long.
    From the Maya boards.

    Importing DXF Subscribe | Outline
    Andy Stone Jun 30, 02 - 46 pm
    Posts: 9
    Importing DXF (Original Message)
    How can I import a DXF into maya and retain its original scaling in metric units?

    Reply Messages 1 - 1 of 1
    Jeroen van Ameijde 07.03.02 - 04:37 am
    Posts: 2
    Re: Importing DXF (msg # 1.)
    Scale in AutoCad with factor 0.393701 before importing
Uber I think the book and the in game measurements is whats out of whack
UberJumper wrote:
Perhaps what happened was the MS, created early, was set at 7000 units, then later on the Relic folks realized it was in feet (in time to do the fighters), but by that time they'd also realized the playability issues, and settled into scaling the ships using NLIPS.

Here's what Trebmal_ca worked up after the dialogues:

These are using the Kushan dimensions here (Taiidan are here)

and here's the link to shade's fan thread here in UMEC forums
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2003 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ship scale comparison site (had it linked somewhere, but can't find the thread, so i'll post it here again)
    lists almost the whole genre of sci-fi ship sizes
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