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MajorFreak
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 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2001 3:58 am Post subject: Missile Data (maxV, stuff like that) |
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Missile Damage Life Veloc turn AI Credits
======= ====== ==== ===== ==== == =======
Sting 3300k 50 397v 0.73 1 ~6000cr
Calyp 2600k 55 396v 0.70 1 ~5400cr
Rapie 3000k 45 400v 0.70 1 ~5500cr
Sledg 5500k 80 435v 1.13 1 ~10000cr
Sirru 3800k 75 420v 0.96 1 ~8500cr
Cutla 2000k 100 385v 0.87 3 ~9000cr
Lance 16000k 300 490v 0.45 1 ~15000cr
Purga 5600k 120 485v 1.36 2 ~8800cr
LongS 12000k 250 510v 0.44 1 ~13300cr
Hatch 13000k 270 447v 0.52 1 ~15500cr
Katak 14000k 200 600v 0.38 1 ~17000cr
Grave 3700k 75 376v 1.31 1 ~9300cr
Stile 4500k 90 566v 0.61 2 ~9125cr
Screw 3500k 90 561v 1.31 2 ~10700cr |
Last edited by MajorFreak on Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| No data for Morning Stars here. *bump* |
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Xindaan
EU Advisor
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:53 am Post subject: |
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MS would be SD, only 4 of them. Same for Hellrazor = 2 Stilettos.
I found GM_Virgil's spreadsheet a useful thing. Especially for missiles, as it lists the missile's dragfactors, thrust (-> speed) and mass (-> acceleration) all in the same place. In fact, it's the only place I know which lists their drag factors.
Xin |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:04 am Post subject: |
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hmmm...needs updating. plus, we need to find out if MS/HellRazor stats are for the entire pack or per missile in the pack (i'm sure it's per)
BTW, here's the data on the Phoenix Missile HitBox "bug".
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BaadF00d
Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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hmmm, well there are problems then. MS != 4x SD
MS = 4ucs.
SD should be 1ucs then, but is 2ucs
SD mass is 220, MS missile mass is 250
SD thrust = MS thrust = 53500
SD pitch&yaw = 75, MS pitch&yaw = 55
SD drag = MS drag = .17
SD = 3500000 damage, MS = 3100000
SD life = 90
MS life = 60
These differeneces between the MS missile and the SD missile have been present since beta5.5 at least (yes I checked).
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Version Idx CodeName Lvl ucs Mass Damage Life Thrust Pitch Yaw Guide drag Multi Type Price
10061 11 ScrewDriver 27 2 220 3500000 90.0 53500 75 75 2 0.17 1 0 10000
10061 12 Morning Star 29 4 250 3100000 60.0 53500 55 55 2 0.17 4 277 50000
50500 11 ScrewDriver 6 2 220 8000000 90.0 42000 75 75 2
50500 12 Morning Star 6 4 250 4500000 60.0 42000 55 55 2
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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easy to test that theory. since the only thing that counts is the damage when calcing what the MS stats means (ie. pack or per), therefore just get someone with no shields to jump into the sim and throw a MS pack at them and count the holes.
shouldn't be too hard. |
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Fido
Private
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:11 am Post subject: |
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Yep, BaadFood is right, the MS is not 4 true Screwdrivers, they are nerfed. This reminds me of some spreadsheet work I did for missiles. Let's see if I can make this look OK:
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Name TechLvl Size Damage(K) vMax Range Duration(sec) Drag Thrust Mass Pitch/Yaw Guidance
Calypso 5 2 2600 396 20828 55 0.13 20.40 180 0.7 1
Cutlass 8 2 2000 385 37547 100 0.15 22.20 200 0.87 3
Glaive 0 4 48000 265 779516 3000 0.2 14.00 4100 1.75 1
Grave R 20 2 3700 376 2714 75 0.16 22.60 250 1.31 1
Hatchet 17 3 13000 447 118668 270 0.26 52.00 780 0.52 1
Hellr 26 3 4500 566 48794 90 0.18 57.60 550 0.61 2
Kataka 18 4 14000 600 116714 200 0.27 97.20 1280 0.38 1
Lance 12 4 16000 490 114845 300 0.31 74.40 950 0.45 1
Long S 12 4 12000 510 125643 250 0.3 78.02 800 0.44 1
Maul 0 4 48000 265 779516 3000 0.2 14.00 4100 1.75 1
Morni 29 4 3100 561 32640 60 0.17 53.50 250 0.96 2
Purga 12 2 5600 485 57374 120 0.18 42.40 225 1.36 2
Rapier 5 2 3000 400 16845 45 0.12 19.20 200 0.7 1
Sabre 0 4 48000 265 779516 3000 0.2 14.00 4100 1.75 1
Screwd 27 2 3500 561 49592 90 0.17 53.50 220 1.31 2
Sirrus 8 2 3800 420 30494 75 0.15 26.40 210 0.96 1
Sledge 8 2 5500 435 33984 80 0.19 36.00 230 1.13 1
Smacker 2 1 5000 476 5135 12 0.15 34.00 120 0 0
Spear 2 1 4000 500 4223 10 0.12 30.00 100 0 0
Stille 23 2 4500 566 49949 90 0.18 57.60 250 0.61 2
Stinger 5 1 3300 397 18884 50 0.14 22.12 200 0.73 1
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Some of this is duplicated in your post above MF, but I note a couple differences:
The drag factors I use are calculated drag factors based on observed velocity of the missile and formula I posted previously. Thus you will notice the drag factors posted on JOSSH are rounded off. The speeds are based on my observation or your table above (I didn't have time to check them all!) Where the speeds differ it is either they were not previously recorded, they have changed, or typos :headbang: so this is not the final word on missile data!
Interesting is the distance calcuations, which show how far the missile will travel launched from a ship at a dead stop until they run out of fuel. The new Torpedos, with enough fuel to fly for 3000 seconds (50 minutes!), will travel nearly 780,000 before they expire if they never hit anything. I hope that Netdevil has something programmed to take that into effect! |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| thanks. BTW, why should they? missiles go poof once pilot leaves the sector for whatever reason. As for missile speeds? i never used the stats, but calced in the simulator. |
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BaadF00d
Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:47 am Post subject: |
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whoohoo. We actually can nuke the planets with that range! :P
(I was going to nuke the planet in OC to voice my displeasure with Clementus IV - didnt think the missile would make it tho - now it seems it arguably might :) ). |
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Zeshin
Sgt 1st Class
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Doesn't missiles inherit the speed of your ship?
I have had Mauls going 1000v+ when divebombing in my Peregrine... |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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say again? that's new. didn't know that, mate. verrrrrrrry interesting. thx. It only applies to nukes, of course.
now then, might as well quote this for trivia reasons:
| -Spirit- wrote: |
| You need 3 nukes to kill a tow. And it's not easy at all to hit a moving target (even a tow) with nukes. |
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Zeshin
Sgt 1st Class
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Having observed a few missiles during combat, I belive all missiles inherit the speed of the ship launching the missile. It will then drop/increase velocity to it's maximum. The time do reach that speed is affected by the missile's Mass/Thrust ratio and [hidden] dragFactor.
A Nuke is heavy with little thrust so it will travel at it's inherited speed for quite some time (try it by launching a Nuke while sitting still and by launching it while FlashFiring!). A Purgatory on the other hand is very agile and will reach it's peak speed within a few seconds after launch.
However, I have no hard evidence this is actually true. |
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BaadF00d
Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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All weapons inherit the velocity of the launching craft.
Otherwise scouts / arti tenses etc would easilly outrun some of the slower ammo weapons :p
Perversely - for all those fans of Einstein - this goes for lasers too. |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| huh? well, that's certainly new to me...easy to calculate in the sim. Thanks Zeshin and BaadF00d. (though i am 100% positive missiles slow down to their absolute speed quicker than snot except for the nukes)BTW, does anyone know the relative damage a nuke does to a pilot compared to the other missiles? i doubt it's the best divebomb missile for damage. am i wrong? (and on the subject of damage and stuff regarding nukes, how many nukes versus normal missiles does it take to kill an infestation??) |
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BaadF00d
Test Pilot
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Nuke Damage
The nuke - vs pilots - simply does the stated damage: 48K.
The Makk Shield absorbs 36K, and the Oct Tow has 96K of armor. A shieldless Oct Tow should be left in the amusing position of being alive but having exactly 0 armor after getting nuked twice, and a makk shield or PCS-4 doesnt absorb a complete nuke - so 3 nukes kill a tow.
The next most damanging missile is the Lance - which does 1/3rd the damage of a nuke.
The Oct Tow has the same total protection as the sol tow - so 3 nukes kill a sol tow too - the Quant tow - its armor is going to absorb less than 2 nukes - but the makk shield will carry the excess - 3 nukes needed to down a quant tow too - well - 2.25, so 2 nukes and a lance will suffice.
As an aside, actual nuclear weapons have damages rated in kilotons or megatones (being the equilavent mass of TNT needed to achieve the same result):-
1 kiloton = 4,184,000,000 kilojoule
1 maul = 48,000 kilojoule = 0.0115 tons of TNT.
not very big at all.
Missile Slowing down
Simply - its the drag factor / mass ratio that defines the decelleration rate due to drag. Missiles have low drag, but very low mass, and as a result slow down quickly.
Last edited by BaadF00d on Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| sorta like a flashfire pettering out on a light ship. i get it....thx! |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| what i'm working on currently is grabbing screenshots of ship missile slots in an attempt to work out some balance suggestions regarding missile size restrictions...ack! almost done. 5 more ships. off to work. cya |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| OP-Bluey wrote: |
| Err :rolleyes: we haven't really had MS ingame for at least year Toast (as I'm sure you know) and their reintroduction has only ever been discussed as part of missile sizing schemes (even though we now know that won't be happening). |
gotta love how a "it won't be happening" is pronounced like it came from on high. morons. I've seen the absolute worst inane babble come out of ND's collective arse ever since they discovered that talking techie sp33k is a great "shock and awe" tactic even if the only reason they don't want to deal with something is because they don't want to be arsed. (funny how fanbois just lap that shit up)i know there would be a problem with displaying the different sizes for the missile loadouts on the ship purchase screen, but beyond that it would just be the massive coding required *cough*bullshit not like POS by even a stretch*cough*
| Nicator wrote: |
The nix hitbox is more than a 'bit wacko'. I hope these images help enlighten you somewhat.
above rear
rear
lower front
lower nose
side
It's absolutely obscene.
Sure, I know how to shake missiles, and I rarely actually get hit by them. The problem, of course, is that I 1) have to immediately leave what I'm doing to shake them, 2) probably have to waste a flashfire, and 3) am nice and slow, so he who wishes to burn a ff and shoot me while I'm losing them is free to do so. It's not so much an issue of how much damage the missiles do (although that is a big issue for newer nix pilots), but the effect they have on my ability to fight. The group I'm fighting with loses the damage I can do for them for a little while, which when you consider that maybe 1/2 of a pack of nixes might have missiles on it is a major detriment. Given that the nix's abilities as a fighter are questionable anyway (certainly next to the tensy), it's a bit ridiculous :rolleyes:.
In a tensy, I completely ignore missiles. Given that I don't joust anyway, they're a non-issue. In a phoon, all I have to do is keep my speed up a little - a disadvantage given the power problems, but I have the option to lose them safely at a time that is convenient to me, without using a flashfire.
The hitbox is based on an ellipsoid around the ship. This is quite a good approximation for the phoon and tensy. The tensy's sticks out the front very slightly, but it is not significant. The nix's hitbox is screwed both from frontal and top down profiles, due to the canted wings.
Here is an incredibly bad diagram that illustrates the general point This is slighly exaggerated due to the use of 45 degree lines, but shows the point.
http://forums.jossh.com/attachment.php?postid=199459
At a rough guesstimate I'd say that the nix has a hitbox volume about 6 times that of a tensy. |
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MajorFreak
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Aimless7 wrote: |
Most missiles have the best results when firing them head on, while roling to straiten out the flux. ( flux evade less during roll)
As long as you use the right missile for the right job in the right way, they might hit. Compared to other space shooters, JG missiles are very ineffective. - Spear/Smacker - with some training useable against bigger targets. good bang for the buck.
- Cutlass (sol) - excellent for getting tactical pride, you need 3 for a squid kill.
- Sledge (oct) - fair against c1
- Sirrus (quant) - poor against squids while roling
- Purgatory (quant) - excellent against c3-c5 and c8-c9, you need 2 or more for kraken. Purgs tend to miss c1
fair in pvp as long as speeds stay low.
- Nukes - for dive bombing stationary targets. ( infestations, heavy tows ) A nuke can miss an entire faction station. Freighters laugh at them with their Guardian shields.
- Hellrazor (oct) - very good against c6-c7 from the rear because of their AB behavior. fair in pvp for jousting/running.
- Screwdriver (hyp) - very good against flux up to Kraken, but they dont do a lot of damage
- MorningStar (not available) - very good against Phoenix if they wander to far from cover. It was banned on EU for this reason and due to Lag issues.
- others - dont even bother.
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Missile Data (maxV, stuff like that) |
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patch 84 fixed the nix hit box. not to mention enforcing size restrictions on all ships for missiles...plus tweaking missiles so that n00b missiles and the rest are actually useful without being uber.
| Code: |
Missile Damage Life Veloc turn AI Credits
======= ====== ==== ===== ==== == =======
Sting 3100k 20 700v 1.33 2 ~8000cr
Calyp 2500k 24 701v 1.34 2 ~9000cr
Rapie 2650k 22 701v 1.33 2 ~8500cr
Sledg 3900k 18 600v 1.43 2 ~17000cr
Sirru 3000k 33 951v 1.80 2 ~25000cr
Cutla 2000k 16 650v 1.13 4 ~18000cr
Lance 17000k 36 591v 0.49 1 ~27500cr
Purga 4250k 20 625v 1.52 2 ~19000cr
LongS 12000k 40 575v 0.45 1 ~27500cr
Hatch 12500k 35 561v 0.52 1 ~30000cr
Katak 14750k 28 600v 0.42 1 ~30000cr
Grave 4950k 25 599v 1.61 2 ~27500cr
Stile 4250k 30 924v 1.75 2 ~22000cr
Screw 3100k 21 613v 1.45 2 ~35000cr |
(cost with tax...very approx)
one purg now takes a c1-2 down to 3% shields; 1 grave robber takes a c3 down to 50%armour; 3 cutlass or 2sirrus takes a c4-5 down to 12% shields
from testing the approx shielding of lower class flux is:
c1-2 4400k
c3 5000k
c4-5 6800k |
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HiTekHick
Test Pilot
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 566
Location: The sticks!
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| Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: |
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:???: Where's the rockets' info :???:
:???: Morning Star :???:
:???: Nukes :???:
And how are you sorting? |
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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rockets & nukes & morningstars are the realm of high level players...The sorting category is for LEVEL requirement.
Personally, rockets are just so much waste of space unless you know how to dive bomb...besides, the only target of such as that and nukes would be PvP targets and i'm not too interested in that arena. feel free to update this thread with that data if you really want to tho. |
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Heretic
Chief WO4
Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 473
Location: Tripoint
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| BetMonty wrote: |
Yeah... I believe the phrase that comes to mind is, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on."
What you're not getting is that missiles, for the 1st time in the HISTORY OF THE GAME are a threat to everyone, be they Oct, Quant, or Sol. In the past the issues were restricted to one or at most 2 factions simultaneously; it was totally unbalanced. Now all three races - minus race specific benefits such as speed and maneuverability which was always intended in the design - are equally threatened by missiles.
What we have here is not an imbalance that elevates one group above another, instead what we have is a change to the way the game is played that we all must adapt to equally. Personally I think it's a change for the better that makes the game better for everyone. Of course, I'm sure the elite pilots that suddenly have their elite-status threatened by a change in tactics du jour will disagree, but once they adapt I'm sure their whynars outbreak will subside. |
GM_Istvan said some interesting things about the next patches on page 3 |
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