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*IC* versus *OOC*

 
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Xindaan
EU Advisor
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Joined: 31 May 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:27 pm    Post subject: *IC* versus *OOC* Reply with quote

    [Muffy prelude; Sorry to intrude. i'll make this short: This thread was split from a flame war topic discussing an official EU server *InCharacter* announcement here. (alot of folks went *OutOfCharacter* and complained, some people began to say how this probably was caused by the "-100pr" wording) Right! back to Xindaan


It's actually an interesting question whether or not the polstat numbers, used as numbers (unlike in common RPGs) are an OOC or IC thing. If they are some vague "reputation" or really hard numbers. Personally, I'm not sure.

With the so-called "experience", I think in the JG universe, these are really points, not some vague description of a character's experience you have in common RPGs:

It is possible to lose "experience" by killing a civilian in TRI regulated space if your "reputation" with that faction is bad. If the reputation is not so bad before you kill him, you don't lose "experience". If the reputation is bad but you do it in unreg, you do not lose "experience" either. This would not make a lot of sense if it were real character experience.

TRI decides whether or not you get insurance for equipment based on this experience. The border is a hard limit, not a "he's an experienced guy" (though that might just be a typical gamecode concession). Also, there is the connection to rank (not "level") (possible concession too).

Mainly due to point 1, I see the experience really as some TRI "reward" handed out. Real points, not a vague "experience".

Polstat/"reputation", at the same time has a similar hard level when it comes to purchase of equipment. This might still be a representation of an average reputation, though, not hard numbers.

On the other hand, your reputation with a faction will not get altered if you kill a civilian in unreg. It will only drop when you do it in reg. I see this as an indicator that TRI does indeed set this "reputation" and it's not a general reputation you have with that faction. TRI does not insure you if you have a "bad reputation" with any TRI faction, i.e. neg pol.

It's hard to decide, I think. In Germany, we have a somewhat similar system for bad driving. You collect so-called points for violating traffic rules. If you collected a certain number of points, you'll lose your driving license for a bit. These points decay over time. This is prolly a RL example working with real points, a real number you can tell, (just in the opposite direction, heh), rather than just being a game representation of "I am a bad driver".
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:P
it's kinda hard getting the old RP juices flowing when dealing with numbers and stats and stuff. *shrug* (when i said, "negotiate" i really meant those quotations to mean 'not literally')
    it's really dumb having to negotiate *IC* on stuff your pilot would have a tough time understanding, especially "experience points" and "political rating scale"...it all seems so daft


Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MajorFreak wrote:

it's kinda hard getting the old RP juices flowing when dealing with numbers and stats and stuff. *shrug* (when i said, "negotiate" i really meant those quotations to mean 'not literally')
    it's really dumb having to negotiate *IC* on stuff your pilot would have a tough time understanding, especially "experience points" and "political rating scale"...it all seems so daft


As I pointed out: In RL, I have no problems talking about my "bad driving points" and can give an exact number. The question I have no definite answer for is whether or not "experience" (badly named, for sure) and polstat are IC (like the "bad driving points" in RL) or OOC numbers. I know that in common RPGs, these numbers do not stand for IC numbers.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, wait a tic. this is getting so offtopic i'm splitting this into it's own thread and moving to general discussion. (only place i can think of)

hmmm...well, i haven't the foggiest why RL chatter about driving points relates to the difference between *OOC* and *IC*??? When are you *IC* in RL?????

To me, *IC* is being conceited (though not so harsh an interpretation). you're purposely wrapped up in a sort of "willing suspension of disbelief" about something very subjective. (that's my take on *IC* versus the more 'objective' *OOC*)
    and something like "-100pr" is too much a breach of continuity that the willing suspension of disbelief is shattered (especially when what we're alluding to is that announcement by "The Oct Emperor")
there's actually a FAQ i've been working on since PJG was around. see here


Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I think the point of question is not getting through, but I have no idea how to word it better.

My question is whether or not polstat (the numbers, not the "worshipped" expression) is IC or OOC, whether or not it is an IC or an OOC action to (not game-induced by CIVrips or whatever) "drop the polstat" as punishment. This ultimately relates to the question of whether or not the threat to drop OV's polstat to -100 would be an OOC or IC thing.

Hence my RL comparison. In RL, I am always IC (to use RPG expressions). And in RL, there is a system that works just like the polstat system my char sees in JG. I will get points for certain actions I do. Real points I can name, just like I can name the polstat in JG. These points are not a statistical value with no real meaning, they are there, and the state could (and will) just alter these points to punish me. Similar to the threat to OV to drop their polstat points which may or may not have been OOC.

Arf, that probably wasn't better. I think I'll just give up then.
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think the "hard limit" test can be used to seperate IC and OOC meanings of stats.

Having a strength of 18 lets you carry exactly X more Kg of gear than if you had a strength of 16 - OOC. Likewise a magic user gets spells as their character level increases. Form an IC perspective theyve learnt how do cast more spells, so theycould consider themselves a higher rank than other mages who do not have access to such a wide range. OOC theyre a higher rank, and thus have access to a wider range of spells.

The transition between IC and OOC seems to flip cause and effect. OOC its "I have this level, therefore I can cast X spells". IC its "I can cast X spells in a day, therefore in comparison to my peers I have Y level".
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xindaan
idea
okay. what you're attempting to do is stress this RL analogy? more like a metaphor i suppose? Well, to tell you the truth, i never gave it much thought and just got on the Baadf00d bandwagon about how pilot profile stat numbers and JOSSH flight academy numbers are meant to be *OOC* simply because most of us demand accuracy in statistical/profile/rule reporting.

The difference between your metaphor and the ingame reality is that i find it impossible to think in terms that translates to numbers when talking about "devoted" "worshipped" "neutral" "feared" et al. (it's just too much of a breach of my RL 'willing suspension of disbelief' when playing this game)

*shrug*

It's just that i expect community service managers to word ingame NPC actions in a sincere way, and i think (along with others) that the usage of "-100pr" instead of "hostile/notorious/feared" was poorly worded, and betrays a very thin plot.
    it's like we're critiquing a movie. Say you're watching a movie and the characters start saying anachronisms. And hinging a pivotal plot device on such dialogue is BOUND to disturb one's feeling that this is a decent movie


Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the hard limit was just a side note. My main point that experience can't be common experience would relate to losing "experience" for killing lowlevels only when you are in regulated space, but not in unregulated space. Same for polstat. At least I see this as a possible indicator that both experience and polstat might not be "stats" but instead a real IC representation. (Edit: Using this, I actually see problems with people OOCly punished for griefing by reducing their experience points and credits. IC vs. OOC again, I usually try to separate these things as much as possible. But that'd be an entirely different topic again.)

(On a different note, I don't like the AD&D system in the regard you mentioned. You go up a level, say kill a small critter, and swoooosh, you suddenly get more hit points, can cast more spells (again a fixed number per day), can suddenly speak new spells, etc. etc, all for killing a small critter in the extreme example. I prefer RPGs which have less discontinuities but rather try to build up the gradually.)


Last edited by Xindaan on Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2002 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaadF00d wrote:
The transition between IC and OOC seems to flip cause and effect. OOC its "I have this level, therefore I can cast X spells". IC its "I can cast X spells in a day, therefore in comparison to my peers I have Y level".

8O
:dolt: hail


offtopic
Xindaan wrote:
Edit: Using this, I actually see problems with people OOCly punished for griefing by reducing their experience points and credits. IC vs. OOC again, I usually try to separate these things as much as possible. But that'd be an entirely different topic again.)

You got that right. this thread might start breeding 'split functions' like rabbits! *g* (i don't think experience can be seen as known by *IC* pilots because it stands for so many things with all the rules and stuff coded in to boost/dock XP)
    let's ignore the discussion on what to do with known REAL griefers. that's just a little too RL for me. *g*
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