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Muffy; proof read me, damnit

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:41 pm    Post subject: Muffy; proof read me, damnit Reply with quote

Why "Consentual pvp" is only good on paper
    Muffy aside: Llamas
    If you want to know in a nutshell what a Llama is the popular term came about to describe someone who's behavior is "lame"...Think about the JumpGate universe, if you will: a "twink" (clueless n00b with a "WINGAME" button) or a "powergamer" (clueless n00b that grew up into an elitist snob with a "WINGAME" button) or a "carebear" (irrational consentual pvp economic powergamer) or a "griefer" (irrational nonconsentual pvp combat powergamer)
disclaimer: The above "consentual" connotations were false. here is the real definition
please note that the definition of consentual and nonconsentual pvp is highly counterintuitive, especially since this game allows economic warfare and the downing of anyone...which makes nonconsentual pvp possible and pretty much the only game in town. (if they coded in EQ-like infinite markets and a pvpswitch you'd then eliminate this entire pvp conundrum)

You'll notice i don't limit the definition of PvP to pure military combat, but widen it to include a more "RTS" definition based on JumpGate's lack of infinite markets and lack of a pvpswitch. (economic, information, combat, diplomatic warfare made possible by the lack thereof)

You'll also notice that consentual pvp has a very strict definition while nonconsentual pvp has an umbrella definition. (consentual pvp is strictly HG vs HG combat to the point of asking permission for a duel. the definition includes unregulated; nonconsentual pvp means everything including random acts of consentual pvp.)

You'll also notice i do not automatically classify "carebears" as having a lock on consentual pvp, nor do i classify "griefers" as having a lock on nonconsentual pvp. (ie. i do not fall into the trap of creating a "false dichotomy")

Finally, you'll notice i hate "carebears" as much as i hate "griefers"...simply because they are two sides of one coin. You'll notice the hypocrisy when a carebear claims that economic warfare isn't nonconsentual pvp, or a griefer playing the "rape fantasy" card. (ie. "unregulated = consentual pvp" or "HG = big phat target"
dumbass wrote:
Honour among thieves
genius wrote:
Thieves have no honour

PJG General forum thread (updated for purge)
I need to have this to remind myself what lies in store if ND fails to realize JG's potential and gives in to the lowest common denominator. the NERF.
Muffy wrote:
Phier wrote:
Yevon wrote:
ummm.....but if one quits because of an unlawful rip while mining, exploring, being a newbie, etc. isn't that a sign someone went to far? 'sides, who says PVP combat is the only thing that involves other players?
Please go play a blue server on EQ. No one said JG had to be for everyone.
bah. you want red servers to play in, so of COURSE you hope ND caters to as wide an audience as possible.

I doubt you'd shed a single RL tear over a carebear switch/zone/server.

Last edited by MajorFreak on Sat Jan 11, 2003 5:32 pm; edited 11 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2002 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

  • Norinn's definition of "roleplaying" = carebear troll can force their brand of nonpvp playstyle on everyone else without debate, rational discussion, or logic...
  • Everyone else's definition of "roleplaying" = your ingame actions. period. (up to and including OOC remarks; doesn't mean we condone some roleplaying playstyles or actions)

  • Norinn's definition of "storyline" = lapping up deus ex machina official patch statements about the need for FMs and TRI missions.
  • Everyone else's definition of "storyline" = forum *IC* statements that may or may not conflict with the official storyline (or the lack of)

  • Norinn's definition of a "MMOG" = let's have a tea party.
  • Everyone else's definition of a "MMOG" = social dynamic on the internet is much better than having a fuckin tea party with the computer.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2002 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While the PKgriefers dine on the scraps the Carebears drop on the floor.
Remember this?

BaadF00d wrote on 01-12-2002 02:29 AM:
Am I the only person that thinks these extended civ rip penalties are worse than civ inhibitors?

These penalties mean more than ever "Seeding" bounties during a battle removes the honor guard pilots who accidently landed fire on a civ are removed from combat, and must dock asap to clear the bounty, while giving civs even more power to go after players who attained bounties thru legitimate "roleplay" civ downings.

Essentially, for squads like OEC, the penalties as stated for ripping civs - the civs might as well have inhibitors, and at least if they did have inhibitors they couldnt shoot back, and wouldnt have faction space runs to other factions.

Civs become even harder to kill, and every1 cheers?

And im sure - that unlike OEC and other respectable squads, the PKs will find some way to deal with the extended penalties. They always seem to.

Now it's vigilante heaven, except it's not "good guys" it's PKs just like you said.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found the below article on IGN.EQvault editorial
It does a brilliant job of revealing the irony of the "roleplay" versus "powergamer" polemics
"...even the most avid Role Playing guru must allocate some PowerGaming motivations to almost all their characters. We are all PowerGamers. (excepting very few)

Despite this prominent fact, there is still discord among the aforementioned factions of ORPG Gamers, and only a fool would label that conflict as wholly arbitrary. Actually, the basis of ill-sentiment among these Gamers is not concerning the existence of PowerGaming, but instead the extent of its pervasiveness in ORPGs. Simply put, a "good" PowerGamer is one who blends his/her search for influence with Role Playing, while a "bad" PowerGamer is one who reasons out the best methods to gain power, in or out of context with the rest of the world, and works wholeheartedly to do so and reach a "maximum" level of power. To the "bad" PowerGamer, immersing himself in the world is not seen as beneficial to the pursuit of power, and so he speaks and acts in terms of stats, hint books, web sites, cheats, etc., terms completely out of context with the game world and a mundane interruption to Role Players who attempt to immerse themselves in a fantasy environment.

There are many reasons why PowerGamers do this. Gamers who have no experience with pen'n'paper or any other forms of Role Playing may not know how exactly to properly Role Play, and so instead play ORPG's as they play any other game, Quake for instance. In that case, unfortunately, they also do not realize the joy of truly existing within another world, and the lasting entertainment provided by it. Other PowerGamers might just be bowing to Peer Pressure, for when a good Real Life or online friend brightly greets you with a "Hey Ma' Man, Duud, Wassup'?!?!", it may be hard to stay in character. Also, when a newbie asks what he should click to get his stats, a good player, Role Player or not, feels inclined to help him, even if the newbie didn't add "OOC:" (Out Of Character) before his text. Being out of character is contagious, and when other members of a party catch it, it is difficult for the group to get in character once again. Alternatively, a player may PowerGame because he feels that, even in a world designed for it, Role Playing takes too much effort, or is less fun that just playing as he would in a non-RPG.

The solution? Too often, "pure" PowerGamers do not have the will or the desire to advance to Role Playing enjoyment, yet for cases in which they do have it, it is entirely possible for them to learn. There is only one solution which will turn "bad" PowerGamers into "good" PowerGamers, and that solution is "In Context Diversification."

The difference between the types of PowerGamers is that the "good" PowerGamer diversifies himself, not purely searching for power, but involving himself in the in context social aspects of ORPG's as well. Shallow characters with only one focus, in books, in RL, or in ORPG's, are always boring. Dull for those associated with them and dull for themselves, compared with the appeal of a character with a range of motivations and attributes..."

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2002 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PJG general forum thread (updated for purge)
PvPers whine and cheese festival about the "necessity" of FARMING.

LOL. jeezuz h. you peepz take the cake. This is a MMOG, not a fuckin Quake in space...go away and leave us be, i'm sure once you faggoty little girly-men leave we'll become popular as a SCI-FI space sim like privateer online should have been.

not the current quake in space we have now. you fat cats and your mountains of "oh sooo hard to make" cash have ruined JumpGate...There's no way to force anyone into surrendering when their squad networth is in the billions. (and casually going to war at the drop of a hat is sickening to anyone who flies using both hands. jerkoffs! pffft!)



TWINKS!! roflmao!

Last edited by MajorFreak on Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2002 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found in this ND forum thread:
Originally posted by 1c3mAn
...the most successful worldwide MMOG is Lineage: The Blood Pledge. It is a Korean Game and has about 3 million+ subscribers world wide. EQ has about 400,000.

Lineage is PVP btw.

Source: Salon Article about Return of Lord British

Makes for an interesting read. Especially about the Korean Police talking about the Offline PK.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

n00bs and unreg

A n00b perspective
A fairly clean, insightful thread
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That bit about Ultima, Lord British, Lineage and Korea is a surprisingly good read (2 posts above me). Y'all should check it out.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indirect link to thread
Looks like folks are hijacking a carebear's whine fest with references to Bartle's types...hopefully, i'll gain some more feedback on my critique of bartle, but i doubt it. roll
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ND general forum thread
Sassy wrote:
Cay wrote:
He/She/It was in unreg. To fucking bad. READ THE FUCKING POPUP!
Point 1: It's She (thank you very much)

Point 2: that's 2x I have been ripped entering unreg while minding my own business and for no other reason than that I was quantar. The first time was by a sol when I had just got my typhoon, had nooby gear (was all I could afford), and was on my way to wake to force my boyfriend to give me some credits so I could equip it.

Point 3: I did join a squad (A.Q.Militis) but left when I heard about all the civ riping and ganking they were doing. I had been a part of UMEC but wasn't hearing good things about them either. So I decided to just do some freelance stuff, mine, hunt artifacts and things like that. I heard about the sents while mining pure and decided to put what I could afford on my typhoone and head that way. was great, I even hit a C7 a few times with my hammers (couldn't afford the powerplant to mount anything else).

Point 4: the response I got from the "guy" that ripped me was lame (is that the correct twinky hacker lingo?) and I just gave up.

Point 5: you try finding the time to play this game while keeping 2 kids fed, clean, and glued to the tv on the otherside of the house and have to put up with 12 y/o's with daddy's credit cards and the idea that this game is nothing more than a glorified version of space invaders.

I like this game - it's very "cool" (my son says to use the word sweet but I'll stick with the '80s). But I can't see being frustrated over my youngest desire to smear jelly on everything that can't move out of the way and these kids who feel it's necessary to shoot everything that can't fight back.

So, I'm not reconsidering rejoining (I had my friend who setup this account for me send in the cancel request already). I hadn't intended to respond, but I just put everybody to bed and decided to have a peak and see all the nasty things you little brats put on here about me.

I hope this game lasts long enough for episode 2 to get here. NetDevil doesn't seem to have the will or desire to keep let alone grow the user base.

Just everyone be good to each other and enjoy the game without being bullies.

I'm going to try desperately to not read anymore of these posts. wow, would you look at how long this response has gotten already? why can't I stop typing, stop it, stopping nooooooow.
Arnon wrote:
Ok, finally I can post here. First of all, Sassy, I'm really sorry to see you go. I didn't think you'd quit over that, and I wouldn't have ripped ya if I knew you'd react like this.. :( And trust me I'm serious here.

Now, MajorFreak, I'm not a pothy mouthed bastard. I didn't tell her I ripped her "cause I can do it", witch is as lame as one can be. I told her something along the lines that "I did this cause I sweared I'd do everything to eliminate the Quantars still blinded and fooled by Halmalzah". And I this is true.

No one gives me orders in LM, I don't give any either. So I wasn't "told" to kill Quantars.

I'm really sorry to see you quit, Sassy, I really didn't think you would for a rip in unreg... It's really nice to have you put the blame on me too :rolleyes:... It WOULD have happened a day or another, trust me. Someone would have killed ya for some reasons, it just happened to be me.

Now listen people, I don't civ rip, I don't gank people, I don't cheat or exploit bugs. I play perfectly within the rules and I probably have more honor than a lot of my "real" enemies.

I attacked Sassy in Far Point, about 40-20k from DG if I remember right... She FF'ed, but hooked from her escape route "near" (I couldn't say exactly what distance, but I do beleive she could have made it) the DG JumpGate instead of keeping on running... She didn't say a word either on F3 (unless I got it spammed away by the F5 I was on, but I doupt it). If a squaless civ asks me to leave em in unreg, I usually accept.

Also note that I have a personal IC hatress for every form of Quantar beings that still beleives in Hamalzah (that's also the reason I gave Sassy when she asked me). That's only IC of course..

Now, every single one of you in here knows that Lawnmowers are at war with most of Quantars, so why are you suprised if I kill 1 civ quantar in unreg? I made a post on JumpgateCenter about the ganking Quants gave me on my re-activation (3-4 days ago).

My daily flights can be summarized by being attacked and chased by 10+ Quantars fooled and blinded by their so called and non-existant Halmalzah. I actually find this pretty funny, I still shut my hole. But yet I kill a single civ pilot in unreg and I get blamed to have this very person quit.

Oh well, I doupt Sassy wants to personally blame me, or anyone, for quitting. That would just be cruel, mean and irrational. As other people said, she probably would have quit anyways... That's sad, but true.

Fear me, Quantars. My vengeance is not over yet.
(crossreference) (Related topic)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2002 3:56 pm    Post subject: Why don't the GM's stick up for the good guys? Reply with quote

The CareBear Myths (nd general forum whine and cheese fest)
Rhembrandt (red color is muffy edits) wrote:
myth one. If I remember correctly, the story behind JumpGate was that a splintered people, divided by a monstrous cataclysm some indeterminate - but distant- time ago are attempting to reconcile themselves to reforming a new, stable unity under the "leadership" of the proxy-governmental leadership of TRI. Inter-faction hostilities were expected to be part of the game, and Honor Guards were made to fight the good fight and protect civilians. Meanwhile, a hostile alien race is discovered and a secondary war must be fought to keep the Conflux away so that the humans can try to get their sh*t together.

Myth two. Instead, this game is squad vs. sqau, Red-dots vs. Green-dots vs. Blue-dots, and all the while the Conflux are growing smarter, getting bigger, and generally becoming more annoying. Throw into the mix the fact that, at a rough estimate, 1 out of 5 players is a "pirate" of some sort, and you have a dramatic cluster-f**k of misery and miscommunication.

Myth three. The GM's, in the meantime, are left with the daunting task of trying to keep the story-line together and use the in-game play as a vehicle to advance the general plot-line and try to involve players in that.

Myth four. The problem is that the "role play" in game is generally self-centered on the part of certain players, and rarely has anything to do with the actual plot-line. There was the lame-ass excuse of a story-line started by The Gang when they attacked Amananth, causing a butt-load of misery for everyone, just as an example. And in the upcoming promises for increased game play, we see...what? Cargo-stealing thingy-ma-bobs, nukes (now in play), and nano-guns. Bigger guns, more shields, faster ships. And surprise, surprise! None of it works, because the PROBLEM remains the same, despite fixing a few of the symptoms.

Myth five. All the while, the players doing most of the action in the game that feeds the GM's "plot developments" are griefers, pirates, and dishonorable gankers that just wanna have their fun at anyone and everyone's expense. The mess they create takes hours upon hours upon HOURS to fix, which becomes semi-useless as it takes a shorter time to strip a station, rip a civ, or gank a TOW than it does to haul the 500 units of magnesium QuantCOre needs to make a couple purgs that some ganker is just gonna use to down another TOW or...whatever. IT's all very cyclical.
*muffy deletes two paragraphs of gratuitous whine and cheese*

Myth Six. This does nothing to solve the problem, either. Piracy and gank-warfare is destroying this game because the game's story isn't designed for it. Octavian pirate squads move en-masse, becoming invincible, because a Nix was designed to be an uber solo ship. Myth Seven. Most Solrain players are only playing as Sols because they don't WANT to PvP (they want to be merchants and artifact dealers), but because of the storyline that the GM's encourage, Solrain is meant to be universally despised (by Octavians because Solrain is a traitor splinter faction, and by Quantars because we desicrate the harmony of Hamalzah's universe with unmitigated capitalism).
Myth Eight. Quantars, in the meantime, get smooshed between the Octavian raids on Solrain space and the Hyperial story, and their ships simply aren't designed for massive combat, the likes of which Wake station sees pretty much nightly. (OR they have to stay in their own space, which is boring.)

Mnow she's just fucking trolling...*muffy deletes three paragraphs of total unmitigated gall*
Careful you don't step in the bullshit
Myth Nine. I suspect, however, that because I'm on a LOA, and my account is cancelled for the time being, that the GM's simply won't give a rat's ass about what I think. Oh well, screw it. Everyone's free to express their opinions. But I know that, when I come back to the game, it's going to be terrible. The balance is in the favor of those who DISRUPT the TRI effort, and not those who are working to further the reconstruction of the factions
Of course, she shows her true carebear colours by coming back "all calmed down" and suggests the return of the inhibitor chip (this time it's so restrictive you'll need a battery of lawyers to understand the goobledeegook)
    go play EQ, little carebear
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2003 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this one needs an overhaul badly.

probably need to reference and collate all the threads i have so far into a master index for *IC versus OOC* and all that jazz. (hopefully Mulligan can work up some sweat making an RP FAQ that deals with how to not make piss poor RP)

APPENDIX (the scattered threads)
here. (there's a more volatile one here, a vociferous one located here and a horribly eccentric one here...finally there's a self-combusting one there)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luma_Morod wrote:
Honourless and Amateur Pirates

Yep.. its another whinning anti-pirate thread, or maybe not really.
Another pilot is leaving Jumpgate because of Honourless and Amateur Pirates (not the other kind, we frequently hear glorifying their contribution to the game).

In the same night this level 19 pilot, was poded twice. First Unreg. On the first one the pitate shot the said pilot down to armor, before alowing time for payment, that the said pilot was willing trying to do.

Considering he was PoDing an MF, this was quite uncalled for.
Later the same level 19 pilot was fluxing in reg, and a squadless pirate. The pilot had just finnished a manta and was low on shields, the pirate jumps in and issues the pod. Pilot thrusts up to evade the c5's that were still around, while paying the PoD. Pirate shoots pilot down to 5 armor, c5 gives final blow.

Result: JG loses a pilot. And not some whinning lamer who doesnt know what this game is about. Rather a hardened veteran, that happens to know that honor should come before whatever RoC are written down.

I tend to agree with some other pilot around here that says: stop paying PoDs entirely. Cut engines and let them rip. If we cant have fun why should pirates have it?

Someone posted a nasty, "well, they were only looking for a reason to quit" followed by a "nah, it was probably the straw that broke the camel's back" (irony of the former being that the poster claimed it was a famous quote from an old dead fansite's ironic because there was an even more famous quote: "then there's the people who get to play the asshole they can't be in real life")
    right, anyways, back to posting the best quotes that sum this that thread up
Giomani wrote:
This could well have been a mistake on the side of the pirate involved.

There are still a few pirates out there who know and understand the great responsibility that comes with the RP

Unfortunately the majority of pirates about at the moment are not in it for the RP but in it for the PvP. If you want PvP you should join a factionalist squad where you will find yourself in combat with high level pilots with great PvP skill and heavily equipped ships.

Pirates prey on the weak, and as such they have an OOC responsibility to protect their prey.

Unfortunately there is not enough "trade" to keep the current levels of piracy in "work" A civilisation without resources will degrade into anarchy and war. This is what we are seeing with the current pirate situation. There is not enough shipping risking the routes through unreg (as there is no incentive) and so they spill out into Regulated space where they are forced to prey on Civilian craft or attack the factionalist squads for their enjoyment.

I can not understand why someone "quit" the game because of the situation you describe. Why not join the forces that are doing their best to protect Regulated space? I think some of the posts here are correct, if they have quit over such an incident then this game was probably not for them.

What is more concerning is the situation where players are quitting because of other more sinister reasons covered in other threads.
Luma_Morod wrote:
well... just so happens that my friend is back online, and flying... so maybe no damage done.
One of the pirates (the one of the reg, flux episode turns out to be a somewhat notorious a++hole, so kinda takes the random factor out...
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