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Missile Data (maxV, stuff like that)

 
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2001 3:58 am    Post subject: Missile Data (maxV, stuff like that) Reply with quote

Code:

Missile Damage Life  Veloc turn AI  Credits
======= ====== ====  ===== ==== ==  =======
Sting    3300k   50  397v  0.73  1  ~6000cr
Calyp    2600k   55  396v  0.70  1  ~5400cr
Rapie    3000k   45  400v  0.70  1  ~5500cr
Sledg    5500k   80  435v  1.13  1 ~10000cr
Sirru    3800k   75  420v  0.96  1  ~8500cr
Cutla    2000k  100  385v  0.87  3  ~9000cr
Lance   16000k  300  490v  0.45  1 ~15000cr
Purga    5600k  120  485v  1.36  2  ~8800cr
LongS   12000k  250  510v  0.44  1 ~13300cr
Hatch   13000k  270  447v  0.52  1 ~15500cr
Katak   14000k  200  600v  0.38  1 ~17000cr
Grave    3700k   75  376v  1.31  1  ~9300cr
Stile    4500k   90  566v  0.61  2  ~9125cr
Screw    3500k   90  561v  1.31  2 ~10700cr


Last edited by MajorFreak on Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2002 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No data for Morning Stars here. *bump*
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Xindaan
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MS would be SD, only 4 of them. Same for Hellrazor = 2 Stilettos.

I found GM_Virgil's spreadsheet a useful thing. Especially for missiles, as it lists the missile's dragfactors, thrust (-> speed) and mass (-> acceleration) all in the same place. In fact, it's the only place I know which lists their drag factors.

Xin
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm...needs updating. plus, we need to find out if MS/HellRazor stats are for the entire pack or per missile in the pack (i'm sure it's per)

BTW, here's the data on the Phoenix Missile HitBox "bug".
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm, well there are problems then. MS != 4x SD
MS = 4ucs.
SD should be 1ucs then, but is 2ucs

SD mass is 220, MS missile mass is 250
SD thrust = MS thrust = 53500
SD pitch&yaw = 75, MS pitch&yaw = 55
SD drag = MS drag = .17
SD = 3500000 damage, MS = 3100000
SD life = 90
MS life = 60

These differeneces between the MS missile and the SD missile have been present since beta5.5 at least (yes I checked).

Code:

Version  Idx  CodeName     Lvl  ucs  Mass   Damage   Life  Thrust  Pitch  Yaw  Guide  drag  Multi  Type  Price
10061    11   ScrewDriver   27    2   220  3500000   90.0   53500     75   75      2  0.17      1     0  10000
10061    12   Morning Star  29    4   250  3100000   60.0   53500     55   55      2  0.17      4   277  50000
50500    11   ScrewDriver    6    2   220  8000000   90.0   42000     75   75      2
50500    12   Morning Star   6    4   250  4500000   60.0   42000     55   55      2
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easy to test that theory. since the only thing that counts is the damage when calcing what the MS stats means (ie. pack or per), therefore just get someone with no shields to jump into the sim and throw a MS pack at them and count the holes.

shouldn't be too hard.
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Fido
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, BaadFood is right, the MS is not 4 true Screwdrivers, they are nerfed. This reminds me of some spreadsheet work I did for missiles. Let's see if I can make this look OK:

Code:

Name      TechLvl   Size   Damage(K)   vMax   Range   Duration(sec)   Drag   Thrust   Mass   Pitch/Yaw   Guidance

Calypso    5        2       2600       396     20828     55           0.13   20.40     180   0.7         1
Cutlass    8        2       2000       385     37547    100           0.15   22.20     200   0.87        3   
Glaive     0        4      48000       265    779516   3000           0.2    14.00    4100   1.75        1
Grave R   20        2       3700       376      2714     75           0.16   22.60     250   1.31        1
Hatchet   17        3      13000       447    118668    270           0.26   52.00     780   0.52        1
Hellr     26        3       4500       566     48794     90           0.18   57.60     550   0.61        2
Kataka    18        4      14000       600    116714    200           0.27   97.20    1280   0.38        1
Lance     12        4      16000       490    114845    300           0.31   74.40     950   0.45        1
Long S    12        4      12000       510    125643    250           0.3    78.02     800   0.44        1
Maul       0        4      48000       265    779516   3000           0.2    14.00    4100   1.75        1
Morni     29        4       3100       561     32640     60           0.17   53.50     250   0.96        2
Purga     12        2       5600       485     57374    120           0.18   42.40     225   1.36        2
Rapier     5        2       3000       400     16845     45           0.12   19.20     200   0.7         1
Sabre      0        4      48000       265    779516   3000           0.2    14.00    4100   1.75        1 
Screwd    27        2       3500       561     49592     90           0.17   53.50    220    1.31        2
Sirrus     8        2       3800       420     30494     75           0.15   26.40    210    0.96        1
Sledge     8        2       5500       435     33984     80           0.19   36.00    230    1.13        1
Smacker    2        1       5000       476      5135     12           0.15   34.00    120    0           0
Spear      2        1       4000       500      4223     10           0.12   30.00    100    0           0
Stille    23        2       4500       566     49949     90           0.18   57.60    250    0.61        2
Stinger    5        1       3300       397     18884     50           0.14   22.12    200    0.73        1


Some of this is duplicated in your post above MF, but I note a couple differences:

The drag factors I use are calculated drag factors based on observed velocity of the missile and formula I posted previously. Thus you will notice the drag factors posted on JOSSH are rounded off. The speeds are based on my observation or your table above (I didn't have time to check them all!) Where the speeds differ it is either they were not previously recorded, they have changed, or typos :headbang: so this is not the final word on missile data!

Interesting is the distance calcuations, which show how far the missile will travel launched from a ship at a dead stop until they run out of fuel. The new Torpedos, with enough fuel to fly for 3000 seconds (50 minutes!), will travel nearly 780,000 before they expire if they never hit anything. I hope that Netdevil has something programmed to take that into effect!
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks. BTW, why should they? missiles go poof once pilot leaves the sector for whatever reason. As for missile speeds? i never used the stats, but calced in the simulator.
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoohoo. We actually can nuke the planets with that range! :P

(I was going to nuke the planet in OC to voice my displeasure with Clementus IV - didnt think the missile would make it tho - now it seems it arguably might :) ).
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Zeshin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't missiles inherit the speed of your ship?

I have had Mauls going 1000v+ when divebombing in my Peregrine...
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

say again? that's new. didn't know that, mate. verrrrrrrry interesting. thx. It only applies to nukes, of course.

now then, might as well quote this for trivia reasons:
-Spirit- wrote:
You need 3 nukes to kill a tow. And it's not easy at all to hit a moving target (even a tow) with nukes.
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Zeshin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having observed a few missiles during combat, I belive all missiles inherit the speed of the ship launching the missile. It will then drop/increase velocity to it's maximum. The time do reach that speed is affected by the missile's Mass/Thrust ratio and [hidden] dragFactor.

A Nuke is heavy with little thrust so it will travel at it's inherited speed for quite some time (try it by launching a Nuke while sitting still and by launching it while FlashFiring!). A Purgatory on the other hand is very agile and will reach it's peak speed within a few seconds after launch.

However, I have no hard evidence this is actually true.
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All weapons inherit the velocity of the launching craft.

Otherwise scouts / arti tenses etc would easilly outrun some of the slower ammo weapons :p

Perversely - for all those fans of Einstein - this goes for lasers too.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh? well, that's certainly new to me...easy to calculate in the sim. Thanks Zeshin and BaadF00d. (though i am 100% positive missiles slow down to their absolute speed quicker than snot except for the nukes)
    *shrug* intriguing
BTW, does anyone know the relative damage a nuke does to a pilot compared to the other missiles? i doubt it's the best divebomb missile for damage. am i wrong? (and on the subject of damage and stuff regarding nukes, how many nukes versus normal missiles does it take to kill an infestation??)
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BaadF00d
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuke Damage
The nuke - vs pilots - simply does the stated damage: 48K.

The Makk Shield absorbs 36K, and the Oct Tow has 96K of armor. A shieldless Oct Tow should be left in the amusing position of being alive but having exactly 0 armor after getting nuked twice, and a makk shield or PCS-4 doesnt absorb a complete nuke - so 3 nukes kill a tow.

The next most damanging missile is the Lance - which does 1/3rd the damage of a nuke.

The Oct Tow has the same total protection as the sol tow - so 3 nukes kill a sol tow too - the Quant tow - its armor is going to absorb less than 2 nukes - but the makk shield will carry the excess - 3 nukes needed to down a quant tow too - well - 2.25, so 2 nukes and a lance will suffice.

As an aside, actual nuclear weapons have damages rated in kilotons or megatones (being the equilavent mass of TNT needed to achieve the same result):-
1 kiloton = 4,184,000,000 kilojoule
1 maul = 48,000 kilojoule = 0.0115 tons of TNT.
not very big at all.

Missile Slowing down

Simply - its the drag factor / mass ratio that defines the decelleration rate due to drag. Missiles have low drag, but very low mass, and as a result slow down quickly.


Last edited by BaadF00d on Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2002 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorta like a flashfire pettering out on a light ship. i get it....thx!
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what i'm working on currently is grabbing screenshots of ship missile slots in an attempt to work out some balance suggestions regarding missile size restrictions...ack! almost done. 5 more ships. off to work. cya
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP-Bluey wrote:
Err :rolleyes: we haven't really had MS ingame for at least year Toast (as I'm sure you know) and their reintroduction has only ever been discussed as part of missile sizing schemes (even though we now know that won't be happening).


gotta love how a "it won't be happening" is pronounced like it came from on high. morons. I've seen the absolute worst inane babble come out of ND's collective arse ever since they discovered that talking techie sp33k is a great "shock and awe" tactic even if the only reason they don't want to deal with something is because they don't want to be arsed. (funny how fanbois just lap that shit up)
    i know there would be a problem with displaying the different sizes for the missile loadouts on the ship purchase screen, but beyond that it would just be the massive coding required *cough*bullshit not like POS by even a stretch*cough*



Nicator wrote:
The nix hitbox is more than a 'bit wacko'. I hope these images help enlighten you somewhat.
above rear
rear
lower front
lower nose
side
It's absolutely obscene.

Sure, I know how to shake missiles, and I rarely actually get hit by them. The problem, of course, is that I 1) have to immediately leave what I'm doing to shake them, 2) probably have to waste a flashfire, and 3) am nice and slow, so he who wishes to burn a ff and shoot me while I'm losing them is free to do so. It's not so much an issue of how much damage the missiles do (although that is a big issue for newer nix pilots), but the effect they have on my ability to fight. The group I'm fighting with loses the damage I can do for them for a little while, which when you consider that maybe 1/2 of a pack of nixes might have missiles on it is a major detriment. Given that the nix's abilities as a fighter are questionable anyway (certainly next to the tensy), it's a bit ridiculous :rolleyes:.

In a tensy, I completely ignore missiles. Given that I don't joust anyway, they're a non-issue. In a phoon, all I have to do is keep my speed up a little - a disadvantage given the power problems, but I have the option to lose them safely at a time that is convenient to me, without using a flashfire.



The hitbox is based on an ellipsoid around the ship. This is quite a good approximation for the phoon and tensy. The tensy's sticks out the front very slightly, but it is not significant. The nix's hitbox is screwed both from frontal and top down profiles, due to the canted wings.

Here is an incredibly bad diagram that illustrates the general point This is slighly exaggerated due to the use of 45 degree lines, but shows the point.
http://forums.jossh.com/attachment.php?postid=199459
At a rough guesstimate I'd say that the nix has a hitbox volume about 6 times that of a tensy.
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MajorFreak
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aimless7 wrote:
Most missiles have the best results when firing them head on, while roling to straiten out the flux. ( flux evade less during roll)
As long as you use the right missile for the right job in the right way, they might hit. Compared to other space shooters, JG missiles are very ineffective.
  • Spear/Smacker - with some training useable against bigger targets. good bang for the buck.
  • Cutlass (sol) - excellent for getting tactical pride, you need 3 for a squid kill.
  • Sledge (oct) - fair against c1
  • Sirrus (quant) - poor against squids while roling
  • Purgatory (quant) - excellent against c3-c5 and c8-c9, you need 2 or more for kraken. Purgs tend to miss c1
    fair in pvp as long as speeds stay low.
  • Nukes - for dive bombing stationary targets. ( infestations, heavy tows ) A nuke can miss an entire faction station. Freighters laugh at them with their Guardian shields.
  • Hellrazor (oct) - very good against c6-c7 from the rear because of their AB behavior. fair in pvp for jousting/running.
  • Screwdriver (hyp) - very good against flux up to Kraken, but they dont do a lot of damage
  • MorningStar (not available) - very good against Phoenix if they wander to far from cover. It was banned on EU for this reason and due to Lag issues.
  • others - dont even bother.

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Heretic
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Missile Data (maxV, stuff like that) Reply with quote

patch 84 fixed the nix hit box. not to mention enforcing size restrictions on all ships for missiles...plus tweaking missiles so that n00b missiles and the rest are actually useful without being uber.


Code:

Missile Damage Life  Veloc turn AI  Credits
======= ====== ====  ===== ==== ==  =======
Sting    3100k   20  700v  1.33  2  ~8000cr
Calyp    2500k   24  701v  1.34  2  ~9000cr
Rapie    2650k   22  701v  1.33  2  ~8500cr
Sledg    3900k   18  600v  1.43  2 ~17000cr
Sirru    3000k   33  951v  1.80  2 ~25000cr
Cutla    2000k   16  650v  1.13  4 ~18000cr
Lance   17000k   36  591v  0.49  1 ~27500cr
Purga    4250k   20  625v  1.52  2 ~19000cr
LongS   12000k   40  575v  0.45  1 ~27500cr
Hatch   12500k   35  561v  0.52  1 ~30000cr
Katak   14750k   28  600v  0.42  1 ~30000cr
Grave    4950k   25  599v  1.61  2 ~27500cr
Stile    4250k   30  924v  1.75  2 ~22000cr
Screw    3100k   21  613v  1.45  2 ~35000cr
(cost with tax...very approx)


one purg now takes a c1-2 down to 3% shields; 1 grave robber takes a c3 down to 50%armour; 3 cutlass or 2sirrus takes a c4-5 down to 12% shields

from testing the approx shielding of lower class flux is:
c1-2 4400k
c3 5000k
c4-5 6800k
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HiTekHick
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:???: Where's the rockets' info :???:

:???: Morning Star :???:

:???: Nukes :???:

And how are you sorting?
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockets & nukes & morningstars are the realm of high level players...The sorting category is for LEVEL requirement.

Personally, rockets are just so much waste of space unless you know how to dive bomb...besides, the only target of such as that and nukes would be PvP targets and i'm not too interested in that arena. feel free to update this thread with that data if you really want to tho.
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Heretic
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BetMonty wrote:
Yeah... I believe the phrase that comes to mind is, "Pull the other one, it's got bells on."

What you're not getting is that missiles, for the 1st time in the HISTORY OF THE GAME are a threat to everyone, be they Oct, Quant, or Sol. In the past the issues were restricted to one or at most 2 factions simultaneously; it was totally unbalanced. Now all three races - minus race specific benefits such as speed and maneuverability which was always intended in the design - are equally threatened by missiles.

What we have here is not an imbalance that elevates one group above another, instead what we have is a change to the way the game is played that we all must adapt to equally. Personally I think it's a change for the better that makes the game better for everyone. Of course, I'm sure the elite pilots that suddenly have their elite-status threatened by a change in tactics du jour will disagree, but once they adapt I'm sure their whynars outbreak will subside.


GM_Istvan said some interesting things about the next patches on page 3
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